‘Hush’ Episode 7: The Nature of Certain Lies

To this day, Detective Mike Quakenbush believes Jesse Johnson is guilty of murder. Even when confronted with significant evidence pointing away from Johnson, Quakenbush said there is no doubt. But what starts as a cordial discussion of DNA evidence and witness interviews at a Salem diner quickly turns into a revealing conversation about racial bias and the current moment post-2020.

Listen to all episodes of the “Hush” podcast here.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Leah Sottile: Before we get started, this episode contains descriptions of a homicide. It also contains discussions of racism and use of a racial slur. Keep that in mind in choosing when and where to listen.

A few weeks before our meeting at the diner with retired Salem Police detective Mike Quakenbush, we were across town in Oni Marchbanks’ living room. All of her grandkids were coming over for a Christmas party, and she was telling her son which presents to wrap.

Oni Marchbanks: OK, OK. I got him a Paw Patrol truck too. I sent you the picture. OK. OK.

Sottile: In 2020, after the murder of George Floyd by Minneapolis police, Marchbanks joined the millions of people across the country protesting police violence.

Marchbanks: When we witnessed that murder on TV, I said, I’ve got to do something.

Sottile: After seeing Floyd’s murder by Minneapolis police, Marchbanks joined a protest, and at one, she approached a Salem police officer.

Marchbanks: I went up to a cop and I said, what do you think about the incidents that’s happening back east? And he said, the cop said, ‘oh, that’s not us. Oh, that would never be us.’ And so I was like, huh. What do you think about the situation? And he really didn’t have an answer. But it was interesting to me. And that’s the mentality of Salem police is that they think it’s not them or it can’t happen here, and it does happen here.

Sottile: And she decided she wanted to understand her local police department better. So in 2021, she joined the Citizens Review Board – the one we told you about a few episodes back when we were at Applebee’s.

I asked Marchbanks about her view on the board today.

Sottile: Do you get the impression that it does have impact or power in the community, or is it…what is it?

Marchbanks: No power. I think it’s… uh. I don’t think it has power. I think it is just present. I don’t think it moves things, it changes things. I haven’t had that experience.

Sottile: She confirmed what we’d heard earlier: That the board has barely received any complaints in the last few years. But she thinks it’s because people of color – people like her – don’t think they will be taken seriously.

And there’s little public recognition by local police and the Marion County District Attorney’s Office that mistakes and bias could have ever happened in the past.

Marchbanks: They think it’s a zero-sum game, that if I allow you to lead, or if I admit that I’m racist, then I am losing something. I’ll lose something. And it’s not that at all. It’s not that at all. It’s just an acknowledgment. If you can’t be truthful about it, then we don’t trust you. You can’t even acknowledge that part. You won’t even say racist, that big “R” word. It’s racism. It’s here.

Sottile: Early in our reporting, we requested records of all the people of color who have worked as Salem police officers since 1997. In the past 25 years, the agency has only hired 10 people who identify as Black. Most lasted two years or less on the job before leaving. Ten people.

Ryan and I called those 10 Black officers who worked at Salem P.D. and several other officers of color. But few agreed to talk on record.

We were discussing this challenge with Marchbanks when her son walked in the room, started picking up more gifts to wrap. He stopped and listened, then chimed in when we asked if there were divisions inside the police department.

KJ McCrae: I would just say, if you think just in common sense, yeah. I mean, older and younger, it’s as simple as that. A lot of new cops are not even from Salem, so they’re just coming to work and be cops, looking for police jobs, but I know a lot of older cops that have been around the city for a long time. I can’t speak for what their experience is, but I would say that I know when I worked for Salem P.D., I was the only Black cop.

Sottile: You worked for the Salem Police?

Ryan Haas: Is your name KJ McCrae? I’ve been trying to contact you. I’ve been calling you! When you said KJ, I was like…

Sottile: This city is so small.

KJ McCrae was one of those 10 names we received. We called him, but he never called back. Seemed like he and his mom had arranged this on the sly to hear what kinds of questions we were asking. Honestly, well played.

McCrae was a Salem officer in 2010. He told us that he liked the people he worked with. But there was a divide between the older and younger generations of officers.

McCrae: The older cops, the ones that have been around for a long time, I had issues with them sometimes. They had preconceived notions about who I was because of my last name, what they thought they knew of me. They had their own - but rarely ever did they say it to me. I just heard people that people would say things, and that was the older cops. But then on the shift I worked, I didn’t have to see them a lot. So I just never really got into that. I just kind of stayed away from it.

Sottile: He said being the only Black officer in Salem at the time required him to kind of have a split personality. He was a cop, yes. But he was also a Black man in a majority white city who’d had a lifetime of negative interactions with police.

McCrae: My head coach was a sheriff, and he used to let us get in his car and he was just a good dude. But outside of him, every interaction I’ve ever had with a sheriff or police officer is always negative. Even when you don’t do anything,

Marchbanks: They stop you, profile you and stop you. Yeah.

McCrae: That’s real life. So when my mom was talking about my brother getting pulled over, that’s still a thing. We get pulled over by the police. It’s not, oh, we just got pulled over. This could be a life and death interaction depending if they got misinformation, if they just feel hostile towards us, who knows what the environment might be. But it’s not ever just, I’m getting pulled over and getting a ticket. I need to get my phone out, turn it on, roll down the windows, turn the lights on, keep my hands where you can see, because…

Marchbanks: It’s a real thing.

McCrae: As much as they protect and serve, that’s not all of our experiences growing up so it’s hard to shake that.

Sottile: He stopped being a cop after a year and a half because of the stress. It was just a hard job.

Marchbanks: I think that policing is an honorable profession. I really do. I was so incredibly proud of my son. I still have pictures when he was a cop and the choice that he had made, and there’s still work to do. So these paradigms, both of them can exist at the same time. There’s always that both/and. A lot of people like the either/or, but that’s just not reality. It’s both/and.

Sottile: Seems like that both/and Marchbanks is referring to is what her son had to hold in his mind as an officer. But officers are just one part of the system. The Marion County District Attorney’s Office, Salem Police brass and the Oregon Department of Justice all declined to sit down for interviews. So we don’t know if that both/and is happening, if they’re willing to say the system has operated in a biased way and it needs fixing.

But the lead on the Thompson case ‒ retired detective Mike Quakenbush ‒ was willing to talk, and we wondered, after all these years if he had budged on his belief that Jesse Johnson was a killer.

From Oregon Public Broadcasting, this is Hush. I’m Leah Sottile. This is episode seven: The nature of certain lies.

Just before we went to talk with retired Salem police Detective Mike Quakenbush, I called Johnson to find out what he wanted to know. After all, this was his life we were talking about.

Sottile: What would you ask him?

Johnson: Why did he lie? Basically that’s it. I ain’t got nothing else I can say. He lied.

Sottile: Why did he lie? It’s all he wanted to know.

Johnson: He did. Ask them if anytime in your investigation, did you lie? They got to say, yeah.

Sottile: It seemed like a simple question at first. But it turned out it was a question with a much bigger answer about what constitutes a lie, why some people get to lie, and why others don’t. About who gets to make mistakes, and who doesn’t.

By the time we sat down with Quakenbush in that Salem diner, we had been reporting for months.

We knew all the shocking details of the Johnson case. The allegations of racism. The witnesses who weren’t interviewed. Fred Gustafson’s claim that detectives tried to bribe him to point to Johnson as the killer. The mystery vase. We were hoping Quakenbush could shed some light.

Almost immediately – before we even asked about the issues we’d found – he defended his police work.

Quakenbush: Evidence dictates where you go and that’s what you do. And the evidence here dictated that we look at Jesse Johnson. And again, when this case started, I didn’t even know he existed. So it wasn’t like I said, oh, well I can’t stand that guy, let’s pin this on him. Cause I didn’t know he was even a person. I didn’t even know he lived here.

Sottile: Quakenbush thinks Johnson lied from the start. You might remember that when police first arrested him, they asked if he knew Harriet Thompson. He said he didn’t. Later, he realized they were talking about Sunny.

But Quakenbush still doesn’t buy that. Thinks Johnson was just denying knowing a murder victim that he clearly knew. The circumstantial evidence only crystallized Quakenbush’s belief that Johnson was a liar.

Sottile: Because there’s so much that shows, yes, okay. They knew each other. He had been at the apartment, but where does that lead to him killing her, I guess?

Quakenbush: Well, his fingerprint being there in what I thought was blood at the time.

Sottile: He’s talking about the vase print we told you about a couple episodes back. And no, it’s still not in blood.

Quakenbush: And then when we brought him in and then him lying about it, and then him having, being the only one selling her jewelry, that tells me that, OK, he’s been there and he’s got all her stuff that he deems is worth anything. What is his reasoning or his explanation? Where’s his credible explanation to anything? And he didn’t have any.

Sottile: Quakenbush’s belief that Johnson lied about knowing Thompson and being at her apartment came up at the trial, too. His partner, Detective Craig Stoelk, testified Johnson repeatedly said, “I don’t know” when asked about the murder or if he’d been to the apartment.

Quakenbush said there is no explanation for this. But there may be. During appeals hearings, both the state and the defense sent investigators to Arkansas. They wanted to assess Johnson’s intellectual abilities to see if he even qualified to be executed. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2002 that if a person’s IQ is below a certain line, they can’t be killed by the state.

They tested his cognitive abilities. They talked to his school teachers and did research into his mother’s alcohol use.

One researcher of fetal alcohol syndrome disorder told the courts in Oregon that people with the condition – people like Johnson – quote – may adopt a habitual response of denial, or saying ‘I don’t know’ when faced with confusing or stressful situations, including interactions with law enforcement.

It’s one potential explanation for Johnson’s responses to Stoelk and Quakenbush’s questions.

In 1998, Quakenbush was used to talking to people from Salem’s drug world. His case relied on the words of other people in that world, people who were pointing at Johnson. So we asked him, why were they seen as truthful and Johnson was a liar?

Quakenbush: Innocent people can pretty much tell the truth because they know they didn’t do it. People that have something to hide or that did do something, that’s the reason that we all lie, because you don’t want to get caught.

Sottile: He still believes Johnson is guilty in no small part because of Shorty, the guy who was trying to pawn jewelry with Johnson for drugs and who said that Johnson confessed he “offed the bitch” to steal that jewelry.

Quakenbush: Well, when you have somebody telling you, yeah, the guy told me he killed her, that’s a pretty essential witness.

Sottile: On that statement, he recanted that and said that he was forced to give that confession, that Jesse Johnson told him that - I think he said ‘offed the bitch’ to get her jewelry. And then he was, it seemed like he was in, he was out. He was in and he was out. I mean, how is that a reliable witness?

Quakenbush: I didn’t know he was.

Haas: Yeah, It came up at the trial.

Quakenbush: Oh, OK. Well, again, I didn’t really know that he had recanted.

Sottile: I just have to stop here and say – Quakenbush is claiming this is the first he is hearing about Shorty recanting. But we have records showing at one point he was very aware that Shorty told a defense investigator that detectives Stoelk and Quakenbush pressured him to say it.

In records, we can see that just before Johnson’s trial, Quakenbush interviewed Shorty again to ask him why he recanted. In the report, Quakenbush wrote that Shorty – quote – “did not have a reason.”

Unfortunately, like so many other parts of this case, there’s no recording of Quakenbush talking to Shorty again.

By the time the case went to trial, Shorty was back on his “offed the bitch” story again.

Sottile: We noticed that none of the interviews that you conducted with Jesse Johnson were recorded. Was there a reason for that?

Quakenbush: Not really. You know, I can’t remember that we didn’t record. I kind of would have thought we did, but we didn’t?

Sottile: This is the point in the conversation where Quakenbush’s defense of his police work started to have some serious holes.

Sottile: So when DNA testing was done in this case, it really seemed to point towards someone other than Jesse Johnson. The blood in the bathroom sink didn’t belong to him or Harriet Thompson.

Quakenbush: Yeah, I don’t know whose it is. Is it enough to discount Johnson as a suspect? I don’t think so. The prosecutor didn’t think so, neither did 12 jurors. All I can say is that from what I did and what I saw, it all led me towards him. And even though you have the blood, which I can’t explain, does that rise to the level of making him not a suspect?

Haas:: At the time, did you all ever talk about that as a theory of like, hey, maybe multiple people were here? Because there were multiple footprints that were there.

Quakenbush: There could be, again, at the time…

Haas: But at the time you didn’t talk about that? You were just like, Jesse Johnson.

Quakenbush: No, I mean, it could have been, but again, okay, so if you had multiple people and you don’t know who they are, what does that do for you? OK. No, you’re the detective. I’m asking you. OK, you think maybe multiple people were here, but you have no clue who, so what are you going to do about it? What road are you going to go down to figure that out?

Sottile: Quakenbush asked us what would you do? How would you start investigating?

Haas: If there is evidence in this case such as blood at the scene, which seems, I mean to me as a lay person, that seems very directly connected to a very bloody, violent scene.

Quakenbush: Or it could just be blood because, you’re talking, again, this is a drug culture, and these people use syringes, and it is not uncommon to have blood. OK? I mean, for every argument you come up with that is an excuse that it’s not Jesse or someone else, I can come up with another one that shows that it could be very plausible to have blood there. Again, you have the blood, OK. Does that rise to the level of excluding him as the suspect?

Sottile: Who was considered a suspect wasn’t entirely up to Quakenbush and Stoelk. He said Marion County prosecutors were involved in the investigation from day one. Quakenbush was just one part of the system that locked up Johnson.

And our conversation took a turn when we asked him about race.

We were more than an hour into our conversation with former Salem Police detective Mike Quackenbush. And honestly, it was surprising he was still sitting there taking our questions.

He didn’t get up and leave, even when we asked him to account for all the problems we could see in this case.

He just stuck to his story, and repeatedly called Johnson a liar.

Quakenbush: You want provable lies that you can prove are lies in court. Why did you lie to the police, which was a good provable lie. Lie about taking some dead girl’s jewelry. His provable lies, the things that he said to Blocker.

Sottile: So we decided to ask the only question Jesse Johnson wanted to ask.

Sottile: Well, we’ve interviewed Jesse Johnson pretty extensively since he got out, and he did say he had one question. It was, why did you lie?

Quakenbush: He knows why I testified the way I did, because I thought I was being honest. I thought that’s what had happened at the time.

Sottile: Quakenbush took this to mean why did you lie about having a warrant when you seized my boots?

You might remember that the same judge who sentenced Johnson to death said Quakenbush and Stoelk lied on the stand about this warrant.

In Quakenbush’s view, it was all a big misunderstanding. He said he was called to testify in court about something else and was blindsided by Judge Jamese Rhodes’ questions about the warrant.

Quakenbush: They asked me all these other questions completely unrelated to it, and we’re talking this had been months had gone by, and I tried to testify to the best I remember, but I was wrong. I was wrong in the order that things happened. OK, I got that wrong. And again, she totally let the defense just - it was all a subterfuge to get what they wanted, which was for me to make a mistake. I lost a ton of respect for her over this case, and she did me too. And that’s fine.

Sottile: Quakenbush framed this whole incident to us as a goof. A time he misspoke.

But records show they took his clothes, boots, and belongings before getting a warrant. That’s not a little mistake. It’s a violation of constitutional rights.

Sottile: So is it wrong then that the boots were taken without a warrant?

Quakenbush: I don’t remember even taking his boots, to be honest with you. And if we took ‘em, I don’t know, was he wearing them? Or did we take them out of a house or…

Sottile: Arguments over this boot issue went on in the courts for six years. Six years Johnson sat in jail while lawyers argued about his boots.

Quakenbush said he didn’t lie. He just made a mistake, and when the judge in this case held him to account over that mistake, it was simply him being marooned.

My sense listening to Quakenbush is that he takes it on faith that police officers don’t lie. They misspeak, but they wouldn’t purposely, knowingly not tell the truth. Someone like Jesse Johnson, someone homeless or a drug addict, would lie. It’s to be expected.

Johnson doesn’t get to misspeak. He doesn’t get to say, I don’t know.

I think that distinction – of who gets believed, and who is assumed to be a liar – is essential to understanding what happened to Johnson, because the jury in Salem was weighing the word of a white police officer versus the word of a Black, homeless drug user.

Sottile: I am sort of struck by how inconvenient in a way it was for him to be Black here. What if it was a white person and John Shaw had never seen a Black guy walk out of the bushes?

Quakenbush: I don’t know. Let’s, OK, let’s say Jesse’s white. He still would’ve, I still think he was the one that did it, because you have all of the other things that go towards him. The fact that he’s Black is nothing, OK?

Well, actually it’s everything because that’s the only thing that’s driving all of this is the fact that he is Black. The whole reason you’re here is because he’s Black. The whole reason that it became anything of any notoriety is because he’s Black. If he was white, he wouldn’t have - no one would’ve gave a shit.

Sottile: Both Ryan and I have reported on lots of stories in our careers involving people who say they’ve been harmed by the criminal justice system. Some of those involved people were Black, some who were white.

But Quakenbush said the only reason we cared about this story is because Johnson is Black. Not because someone lost 25 years of life to a potential wrongful conviction, but because journalists think it’s fashionable to talk about how police have mistreated Black people in America.

And I fail to see the problem here. What’s wrong with caring about the mistreatment of a Black man?

This came up when we asked him about Patricia Hubbard’s statement, too.

Sottile: There have been accusations of racism made in this case, particularly by the neighbor who said that she saw something happen. Are you familiar with that?

Quakenbush: That’s the first time I ever heard it.

Sottile: Me saying that right now?

Quakenbush: No, I saw in the little article, it was online, and that’s the first I had, that was a few months ago that I read that.

Sottile: She said, I have information and whoever she spoke to said, a Black person died, and a Black person’s going to go down for it. I mean, what do you make of that?

Quakenbush: I find that hard to believe. I wasn’t there. I didn’t conduct the neighborhood canvases. I can’t believe it. I mean, if we were so racist, then I wouldn’t have put any of the effort into it to begin with. I mean, you have a dead Black prostitute druggie. Why put any effort into something if you’re that racist and you don’t care? So, is it fashionable post-George Floyd to say things like that? Could be. Are they making it up? I don’t know. I can’t say they’re not.

Haas: Just to be clear, she said this in 2014, 2013 when she was deposed in this case.

Quakenbush: I didn’t know that, OK.

Sottile: It’s a revealing answer. The 2020 murder of George Floyd broadcast to the world that a Black man accused of a petty crime could be punished with lethal force.

But to Quakenbush, the killing gets misconstrued to malign all police, even here in Oregon.

Frankly, I think it’s possible he said all of this because it was two white reporters asking him questions. As if we should have thought twice about asking the questions we were asking.

Sottile: Did you ever hear any accusations of racism against detective Stoelk?

Quakenbush: No, not that…

Sottile: Anyone that you worked with?

Quakenbush: I actually had written up years ago.

Sottile: This – what he said next – was not what we expected.

Quakenbush: I went to arrest a shoplifter and a guy ran interference for him, and it was a Black male. And so I detained him and he goes off on this rant about how all the n**** need to kill all the white people, and I wish all the white people were on an island where we could kill all ya. And n**** got to kill white people and just went on this huge rant about that. So I responded back to him with the same language, and two officers walked up, but they didn’t hear any of the first part of it, okay? They walked up and just heard me say, well, it would be a shame actually, I think, if n**** killed white people. I think it’d be a shame if anybody killed anybody. Kind of the, why can’t we all just get along sort of a thing. But because I said the word n**** and that’s all they ever heard, so then they reported me.

Sottile: Here we were, in the middle of a discussion about racism and policing, and Quakenbush – on tape, four times – used a racial slur in telling the story of how he was investigated.

He wasn’t a short, stocky bald man like Patricia Hubbard described, but Quakenbush was a police officer who seems just fine saying slurs.

He said he wasn’t disciplined over the complaint. We tried to get records of this incident, but Salem police said no, they didn’t keep any records of complaints against officers after they retired. Shocking, I know.

But Marion County prosecutors knew about Quakenbush’s history.

On the day Johnson was released from jail, a prosecutor with the DA’s office named Katie Suver sent an email to Johnson’s defense team.

In her email, Suver wrote that she had spoken to a current detective with Salem Police, and he ‒ quote ‒ “mentioned that he was aware of a prior complaint against Mike Quakenbush that involved an accusation of racial prejudice.”

That detective, Suver said, ‒ quote ‒ “wanted to advise us of the possibility that some investigation may have occurred.”

Prosecutors didn’t bring this up in their official reason for dismissing their case. But privately, it was clear they were worried about Quakenbush’s past.

At the diner, Ryan asked Quakenbush about the newspaper carrier - Janelle Osborne – who called in a tip about seeing a white man running from near the murder scene.

Quakenbush documented Janelle’s tip around the same time he was interviewing the helicopter pilot, John Shaw, but Janelle told us she never got a call.

Quakenbush: I remember talking to the pilot. I don’t remember talking to the newspaper person.

Haas: I guess that was what was curious to us. Cause she was like, well, yeah, I was expecting someone to call me and whatever, go down to the station and look at photos. And she said nobody ever did. And I was curious, maybe the information was unreliable, or?

Quakenbush: I couldn’t do the same with white males, because there’s tens of thousands of photos of white males in the system. We’d have been sitting there for days. I didn’t think there would be as many Black males as there were because again, it was a fairly new system, but whites get arrested overwhelmingly over other races in Salem, OK? Because there’s just not a lot of Black people that live in Salem and are committing crime here. So the number is far more limited. And it was easier to do that again, to sit her down and show her the pictures of tens of thousands of people kind of was not realistic, I didn’t think.

Haas: So when you heard it might be a Black guy, you were like, oh, that makes it much easier to narrow down the potential pool of people.

Quakenbush: Yeah, because you don’t have a lot of Black folks in Salem, especially committing crimes. Like I said, all put together there was about a thousand and that was it, as opposed to tens of thousands.

Sottile: So… what Quakenbush is saying here is that, even if he had spoken to Janelle or Patricia Hubbard about a white man running from the scene, it wouldn’t have been much good to him. Because Salem is mostly white people.

But what the pilot offered was a unique suspect. A way to drastically winnow down the number of people who could have killed Thompson. He gave them a Black man in a majority white town. Even if that Black man was seen hours after the murder.

Being Black made Johnson a suspect.

Sottile: When we spoke to Fred Gustafson, he did say that one of the detectives on this case pointed to Jesse Johnson’s photo in a photo lineup and said, a thousand dollars if you pick him.

Quakenbush: I don’t know about that.

Sottile: Neither do I.

Quakenbush: If somebody did, that would be totally inappropriate. That’s the whole reason you have a photo lineup.

Sottile: I guess it’s just hard when we hear about a lady across the street saying a thing about racism, and then we hear a thousand bucks for this photo, and it’s just, I’m trying to understand why any of these people would lie. It doesn’t seem like it would get them anything.

Quakenbush: I know. I can’t say they are lying.

Sottile: If this case got bungled in any way, do you think that that began with the police department or with the DA’s office?

Quakenbush: I don’t know that it was bungled, so…

Sottile: If there’s a possibility that he’s not the guy who did it and he was on death row. He lived in prison for 25 years. Just as a person, how does that make you feel?

Quakenbush: Doesn’t make me feel anything.

Sottile: He said he did the best he could on the job. And this was one of thousands of cases he worked on. And he doesn’t feel anything.

Then he got up, wished us luck, and walked out of the restaurant.

That kind of apathy to whether or not he got the right person for the crime, it left us stunned. If the point of the job isn’t to get it right, why would people trust the police?

I asked Jesse Johnson about this issue of trust.

Sottile: Do you think your case is an example of why maybe that trust shouldn’t be so definite?

Johnson: Well, yes, but it’s certain people believe the police. Not everybody believes the police.

Sottile: Who do you think doesn’t believe the police?

Johnson: Well, most people that dealt with ‘em, they know not to believe them.

Sottile: That mentality Oni Marchbanks told us about - that police departments nationwide saw what happened with George Floyd and said that that’s terrible, but it’s not us - it fits with what we heard from Quakenbush.

When we asked him about the allegations of racism in Jesse Johnson’s case, he said it was hard to believe a Salem police officer would say racist things on the job, right before he told us about saying racist things on the job.

After we spoke to Quakenbush, Salem police again declined our interview request about Jesse Johnson’s case because, as of this spring, he had hired new attorneys and was planning to sue them for wrongdoing.

But we couldn’t shake the idea that there isn’t a way to really get at the truth of who killed Harriet Thompson if no one from the police is willing to go back and discuss the case in an objective way - a way that acknowledges it’s possible mistakes were made, and that maybe even lies were told to cover those mistakes.

Fortunately, we aren’t the police.

And when we started looking for people who might have killed Harriet Thompson, people who aren’t named Johnson, we found a lot of them.

Stacy Satter: I knew he was lying about saying Jesse had admitted to it.

Quakenbush: Were you any part of killing this woman, Sunny?

Bill Cross: Oh no.

Claire: The officers told me that when they went into the shed, he was breaking the knives.

Sottile: That’s next time.