A rock climber climbs Smith Rock on May 16, 2020.
Stephani Gordon / OPB
Outdoor recreation generates around $7.5 billion in Oregon, according to the Outdoor Recreation Roundtable. Some of our most popular industries include boating, tent camping, hiking and climbing. But while the industry generates more than 70,000 jobs in the state, some of these workers face dangers that go beyond just natural elements.
As reported in the New York Times, women are reporting more abuse and sexual harassment in climbing. In 2018, a survey of over 5,000 climbers found that 47% of women and 16% of men faced unwanted sexual behavior while climbing.
Respect Outside was founded in 2019 by Gina McClard and Jim Miller in Bend. Together they help provide trainings, policies and procedures to help prevent sexual harassment and discrimination in outdoor spaces. They join us to share more.
Note: The following transcript was created by a computer and edited by a volunteer.
Dave Miller: From the Gert Boyle Studio at OPB, this is Think Out Loud. I’m Dave Miller. Outdoor recreation generates around $7.5 billion and 70,000 jobs in Oregon according to the Outdoor Recreation Roundtable. But some of these workers face dangers that go beyond natural elements. As covered in the New York Times, women are reporting more abuse and sexual harassment in climbing. Respect Outside was created to foster a different culture in outdoor recreation. It was founded in Bend in 2019 by Gina McClard and Jim Miller.
They provide trainings, policies, and procedures to help prevent sexual harassment and discrimination in outdoor spaces and they both join us now. It’s great to have both of you on Think Out Loud.
Gina McClard: Happy to be here, thanks.
Jim Miller: Thanks for having us, Dave.
D. Miller: Gina first, you’ve worked to combat sexual harassment and sexual violence internationally and in many industries in the U.S. Why did you turn your focus to the outdoor recreation industry?
McClard: Well, it was a combination of the fact that, like you said, I’ve been working on trying to improve the criminal justice system for survivors of sexual violence for my whole career. Working with Jim,
who’s a longtime veteran of the outdoor industry, we realized that there was a sector of our community that hadn’t really addressed this issue for a prolonged period of time. So I turned to Jim and I said, what is it like in the outdoor industry? How are women treated? And I’m gonna let you finish that.
J. Miller: And so it kind of goes to this point, Dave of, you know, #not all men. I thought I’m not anybody who’s doing these bad behaviors. I’m not approaching women and saying unwanted or touching them in unwanted ways, right? So it’s not me that’s the problem. And I don’t see that happening so much. And so I told Gina, you know, like, hey, when I started in the outdoor industry, there were very few women and now there seems to be almost a parody, male to female in the outdoor industry.
But Gina invited me to really have conversations with women about their experiences both in the outdoors playing out on mountains, on the rivers, that type of thing, and at work, and how any sort of gender-based bias shows up in the workplace. And I was really floored by the response that I got when you invite those conversations as a way to learn and educate myself. It was very impactful and we started respect outside really soon after those conversations.
D. Miller: What are examples of what you heard?
J. Miller: Yeah, so as an example, I was at a trade show. I was talking to a ski brand at a trade show and a woman pulled me aside in the hall and said, ‘hey, I overheard what you were saying to that brand and let me tell you my story. I’m an athlete. I work for and am sponsored by X ski brand. And I started with them when I was 16 years old. And I’m 28 now and I see other young women coming up behind me like I did. And the manager that I report to does and says all sorts of unwelcomed things.’
And what she described to me was not just sexual harassment but sexual assault, the act of touching, unwelcomed touching. And so, you know, we hear these types of things, we hear all sorts of incredible stories, horrific stories, from folks that are at camp as a counselor. ‘I was raped by a co-counselor the first night of work.’ These are the stories we hear Dave that need some serious addressing in the industry.
McClard: But there’s also an overwhelming bias, I think, towards women or newcomers in the outdoor spaces, just because outdoor spaces historically have been explored by men. And now that we are seeing different faces in the outdoors, we haven’t really adjusted any kind of our community to realize that we’ve got all different kinds of folks outside now. And so there’s a lot of pressure that we see.
Repeatedly we hear from folks saying that women are really encouraged to conform and don’t slow down the group and these ideas that there’s only one way to be outside. And we are learning, of course, that that’s not the case. And so respect outside.
We’re trying to open this dialogue generally with the folks in the industry. And there’s been a lot of invitation since COVID, when people realized that they wanted to get outside to find solace from all the stresses of the pandemic. And so there was a lot of talk, a lot of movements, a lot of invitations to get folks, new folks, into the outdoors. But we didn’t do anything to make those spaces more safe and to make them more comfortable. So part of the work that we do here at Respect Outside is helping other people understand that they can actually have a positive role and be part of the solution rather than part of this ongoing problem.
D. Miller: Gina, how is the work you’re doing complicated by a lot of the venues being trips, being outside, as opposed to office spaces. If we’re talking about, say, some guided climb or a whitewater rafting trip where the entire group is outside, how does that affect the kinds of training you provide or the lessons you’re trying to impart?
McClard: It’s really interesting because I came to the outdoor industry from, primarily, a background in nonprofit and academia. And so when I got into this arena, I started realizing that there are increased risk factors for sexual violence in the outdoor industry or in outdoor spaces that I hadn’t seen before.
For instance, like you mentioned, going out on expeditions or long standing trips, people who work in the outdoor industry often go off with perhaps maybe only one other colleague and then a bunch of clients, out into the woods or out on the river or out in the canyon, for 2 to 3 weeks at a time. And working in an isolated workspace is very, very much an increased risk factor for sexual harassment, sexual assault.
There’s also a big drug and alcohol culture in the outdoor industry. And I feel like that’s, in part, because it’s a recreational industry. And so those two things go hand in hand. But we know that alcohol in particular really does increase your chances of seeing sexual harassment or sexual assault. And so that’s another big problem.
We also have an old cowboy or old wild west, go big go or go home, kind of attitude also that I see in the outdoor industry that I hadn’t really experienced before. And that also encourages a climate of conformity and kind of othering people who aren’t quite like how we are. And so I feel like there’s a big inclusivity issue and a belonging issue in the outdoor industry.
J. Miller: And I would add to this, that you mentioned that these remote trips, these expedition-style excursions that people take, are one part of the outdoor industry. But you know, there are people that are working 9 to 5 jobs in corporate settings in offices, but they still hold this self-identity as an outdoor industry employee. And they have this kind of ‘I’m separate from that corporate 9 to 5 nonsense. I do my things my own way.’ They have this rugged individualism even if they are working in a more corporate setting.
D. Miller: Jim, at the most basic level, we’re talking here about a lack of physical safety that is the result of a lack of training or protocols or actual safe policies. I’m just curious how you think about that in the context of an industry, whether it’s climbing guides or whitewater rafting, where the sense I get is that physical safety training is a huge part of the experience? How do you reckon with those two things, a big emphasis on physical safety when it comes to not falling out of a boat, but seemingly much less of one when it comes to the personal physical safety, especially of women?
J. Miller: Yeah, you’re absolutely correct. So these outfitters will have a risk management plan that’s a book, 900 pages long. They tout the training that their guides receive around rescue and around first aid, CPR, wilderness first responder. So people will highlight those attributes in their marketing materials to attract their customers. But you are right that there’s a dearth of knowledge or information or training around the psychological safety of, not just coworkers but, the participants on trips as well. So really this is a conversation.
I think Gina mentioned before that this stems from an industry that was created for white men and by white men. And I am one too and I get to be that cultural bridge in the conversation to say, ‘hey, I understand where the origins of the outdoor industry are.’ But as Gina also was saying, if we are looking to make it more inclusive, to invite people that don’t look like me into outdoor spaces, how is it that we can create a welcoming environment and really set the table. That starts with your own internal policies and procedures and training staff to understand their own bias and what to do when unwelcome behaviors do show up in the workplace.
D. Miller: You have 20 seconds left.
McClard: I was just gonna say I was so surprised when I switched over to the outdoor industry. There’s so much emphasis on safety that I actually thought, well, this is going to be an easier industry to get our ideas and our thoughts across because there’s so much emphasis. But weirdly, psychological safety is completely omitted. It’s not a part of most of the risk management programs we’ve seen. And so that is one big message that we’re trying to bring, is that safety is all encompassing. We have to make sure everyone’s safe in all aspects of their lives.
D. Miller: Gina and Jim, thanks very much.
McClard: Thank you.
J. Miller: Thanks Dave.
D. Miller: Gina McClard and Jim Miller are co-founders of Respect Outside.
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