Is it time to change up the Oregon state flag?

Oregon has had the same blue and gold state flag for nearly 100 years. The state’s name, coat of arms and year of statehood are on one side, but it’s the other side that features the golden beaver that makes it unique — it’s the only state flag with two sides and one of the only double-sided flags in the world.

The Redmond Spokesman recently ran an editorial pointing out that some of the images that make up the state seal on the flag might be due for a makeover. It also questioned the need for the words “State of Oregon,” likening that choice to having a bumper sticker with the word “car” on it.

We discuss the pros and cons of the Oregon flag with the author, managing editor of the Redmond Spokesman, Tim Trainor, and one of the current state flag’s most ardent supporters, retired Oregon Senate President Peter Courtney. We’ll also talk with Ted Kaye of the Portland Flag Association and North American Vexillological Association who consulted on Minnesota’s recent flag redesign.

This transcript was created by a computer and edited by a volunteer.

Dave Miller: From the Gert Boyle Studio at OPB, this is Think Out Loud. I’m Dave Miller. Oregon has had the same blue and gold state flag for nearly 100 years. The state’s name, coat of arms and year of statehood are on one side. The other side has a beaver. It’s not just the only state flag with the beaver. It’s the only one with two different sides, but for the editorial board of the Redmond Spokesman, that is a bug, not a feature. They wrote recently that for a variety of reasons, Oregon’s flag is due for a makeover. Long-time and now former State Senate President Peter Courtney says not so fast, that the flag should remain the way it is. Peter Courtney joins us now, along with Tim Trainor, the managing editor of the Redmond Spokesman. It’s good to have both of you on the show.

Tim Trainor: Thanks, great to be here.

Peter Courtney: Thanks, Dave.

Miller: So, Tim Trainer first. You led your article by noting that lawmakers have a lot of pressing issues on their plates from housing and homelessness to drug laws, the things we talk about on this show all the time. So what’s your argument for why they should devote at least some of their attention to the flag?

Trainor: Yeah. Well, I think that’s kind of how this came about, just thinking that we have all these heavy exhausting issues both on the state level now. A presidential election, that’s probably going to be the same. So it felt kind of like thinking about the flag trying to redesign it, thinking what that could look like. Having everyone’s thoughts come in on the matter would be something fun and interesting to debate about and maybe less significant, just not as high stakes as some of those other issues.

Miller: Can you describe the current flag for people who maybe have forgotten what’s on it, at least what’s on half of it? Because the beaver is pretty easy to remember.

Trainor: Yeah. It’s the state seal on a blue background which is a very common state flag. About 23 states have something similar. Utah and Minnesota, which just went through this long process of changing their state flags, had something similar. It was just their blue background, and this complicated state seal. They decided to go through this long process of redesigning it and it seemed like something Oregon could take on.

Miller: And for people who forget what’s on the seal…

Trainor: Yeah, there’s a lot going on there. It’s busy.

Miller: …there are mountains, an elk, a wagon, the Pacific Ocean with a British warship leaving and an American steamship arriving. There’s a bushel of wheat, a pickaxe, a plow and an eagle. It also says “State of Oregon” in big letters and 1859, the year of state beneath that. And then there are some stars. I think I may have forgotten something. There’s a lot going on there.

Trainor: It says, “The Union,” which is no longer Oregon’s state motto. That’s an outdated state motto.

Miller: So that’s the current flag.

Peter Courtney, we called you up because I remember this pretty well. We were broadcasting from the Capitol on the first day of the 2011 session and you gave a speech, a kind of welcoming speech, to your fellow state senators about the flags that were on all of their desks. Do you mind telling us the story of why you made flags for them and how you got them?

Courtney: Because the flags that were on the desk, the small flags, as well as the small flags wherever you found them, were not Oregon’s flag. They were a phony flag. They were one-sided. They did not include the beaver and I went nuts. So I took money out of my own account and looked to have that corrected and they couldn’t get anybody in the private sector to do it. Then I went to prison industries, and they jumped on it and literally printed it out, re-did the flags. So there is the beaver on the other side so that every member of the legislature as well, at that time, had an accurate small flag on their desk, as well as the little American flags, as well as the base of the flags. The State Senate has black walnuts everywhere. That’s their wood and leftover pieces of black walnut we use for that. White oak is the wood that is used in the House. And they took all pieces of that to do that. And I was very grateful.

So that’s the story behind it. And I’m holding one of those little flags in my hand. It became so much a talking piece that the shop down in the Capitol asked permission to be able to sell them accurately. And I said, yes, go ahead and do it. So that is a story I think you were looking for.

Miller: Why did it matter to you that the flag was not the correct flag?

Courtney: I have been in Oregon for 50 years, having come out from West–by- God–Virginia and Rhode Island. And one of the things I coined in a speech, it just came out of me without knowing it is that Oregon likes to be first or only. It’s not a state that likes to be a copycat. It’s not a state that likes to be a follower. And sure enough, I found that very attractive about Oregon, my Oregon. And so I love the flag when I realized it was the only state in the union. They had a two-sided flag. I think I could say this. Paraguay may be the only country that has a two-sided flag. I found that very exciting, very unique and very special and what makes Oregon great. Although if you read this editorial, they want to make Oregon basically a copycat state as well as a state that’s a follower.

Once I said to one of the lobbyists, the tragedy of Oregon today is it’s becoming just another state, and this is not something that’s Oregon. It’s not and that is in its flag as well. And so, you know, you just heard from a man whose life has been dedicated to trying to help in public safety, corrections, another area I’m fascinated by and if you listen to him and everything he had to say, did a brilliant job. And anyway, he talked about how they are struggling every day to try to make a perfect system so that people don’t be offended again, et cetera. Well, you got elections coming up. States have been forced to do immigration because the federal government’s dragging their anchor. Mental health is beyond big in our society. We’ve yet to make it. We got all these things and even the editorial speaks to that and there’s nothing wrong with the flag. There’s nothing wrong with the Oregon flag. Nothing.

Miller: All right, Tim Trainor, let me go back to you because you say that there is something wrong with it starting with the two-sidedness. How do you respond to Peter Courtney’s point that there is something wonderful about the uniqueness certainly among states and almost among countries, to having two sides in our flag?

Trainor: Yeah, I sort of agree with that. I mean, I think that it’s unique and interesting and I think that if the redesign wanted to include two sides, I think that’s a wonderful idea. I think the beaver could be much bigger. There could be lots of different changes that could be made and you could even keep the two-sided nature of it. Obviously, flags are meant to be a symbol that’s simple and easy to understand and easy to see from far away. So there’s some, just sort of non-artistic downsides to a two-sided flag. But if that’s what Oregon wants, that sounds great to me.

Miller: We did ask folks on Facebook, whether they think it’s time to change the state flag. Bart Mitchell said, “I love our flag. Nice clean design. I especially love that we’re the only two-sided flag.” Kim Stack-Reed wrote, “Perfect as is.” Gordon Carin wrote, “Oh, it’s a fine design for a terrific state. Let’s keep it for the duration.” Heather Mitchell Borgaro said, “I’m no artist, but I think our current flag is kind of lame. I don’t know what would be better.”

We did ask listeners what they wanted to see in a new flag. We got a couple of different voicemails. Here’s a short one from Pam who called in.

[Voicemail recording]: “Hey, this is Pam from Oregon. I’d love to see an old growth forest on the state flag.”

Miller: And here’s another voicemail:

[Voicemail recording]: “If we were to redesign the state flag, it would be so nice if it were less complicated, the same on both sides, without a seal that is so hard to see when you’re not very close to it or the writing, which isn’t really necessary. You shouldn’t have to read the flag that says State of Oregon to know whose flag it is. You should look at it and say, oh, that’s the flag of the State of Oregon. So I really like the ones from the Oregonian contest that they did in 2008. The one that won which is lovely. It has a beaver, it’s got a star, it’s got the blue and the gold, it’s really pretty. It’s not complicated. It’s easy to see from far away and it’s very distinctive.”

Miller: It’s worth noting that if you Google Oregonian 2008 flag contests, you can see all 10 finalists from, what, 16 years ago now.

Tim, you did note that in the lead up to the 150th anniversary of Oregon’s statehood back in 2008, there was an effort to revamp the flag. Nothing came from that. What’s your vision for how this time could be different, for how a public process could be inclusive and efficient and effective, could actually lead to a better flag than what you think we have right now?

Trainor: Yeah, it does seem like a long shot a little bit, but it seems like Oregon could benefit from sort of reconnecting with voters and Oregonians from all corners of the state to think about something that’s fun and interesting and helps sort of brand and define their state. I think it’s something that residents could get behind, voters could get behind, and it could create a sort of healthier debate than we’re getting in some political races around the state. So I could see people joining in the fun of voting and debating what should be on there and how it should look and what colors it should be. I could see it as being something that brings people together to try to figure out what’s the best design and voting on the final design, if they like it or not.

Miller: Let’s listen to another voicemail. This is Bob from Portland.

[Voicemail recording]: “An image that covers the entire state would be a salmon. That image connects our coastal communities, our big rivers, our small rivers and unites the concerns of an entire region.”

Miller: Peter Courtney, I’m wondering is it possible that a redesign conversation could lead to a kind of civic engagement? What Tim Trainor has been getting to here, a kind of civic engagement, that you value conversations about where Oregon is now? What should we be in the future where we’ve been in the past?

Courtney: I think the flag is now designed would be a flag if you think of this, if you were teaching history classes, civic classes like in high school wherever. And you said your only reference will be the flag, take the flag and show how it relates to all parts of Oregon as well as its history. It would be magnificent because you can do it. You look at the flag and what’s on it, you can do it.

But there’s one other thing here that I can’t believe. Redmond is a great place, but it’s part of rural Oregon. One of the big fights that’s going on in this state and it breaks my heart is rural versus urban. It’s a huge divide. The one thing that doesn’t cater to that and push that is the Oregon flag. If you look at it and if you go to try to change this flag, I can tell you you’re going to get into that fight, which doesn’t help the state one bit. We need to be brought together and this flag by herself, standalone if you’re honest about it. So I don’t know why we’re even talking about this.

So many arguments made by those who want to do it are already being done. And I don’t know whether it’s because the individual writing this knows there’s a lot more out of staters that have come into the state that just say, well, the flag should be three colors. If you look at all of these other states, they are like one color. Our country is one color, or they got something that looks like it’s wrapped up. It’s got a ribbon and it’s blue and I’m going, what is that? A flag is part of who you are and what you are. It’s not supposed to be just pretty. The navy blue and gold are magnificent. It’s regal. I can go on and on here. You haven’t given us the time and I understand that, and you haven’t given us the time because you know the corrections issue is more important than having this discussion about a symbol that is unique, a symbol that is special. This symbol is like none other in the world. Why do you want to mess with that if there’s nothing wrong with it?

Miller: Tim Trainor, I’ll give you the last minute here.

Trainor: No, Peter makes a good point. I mean, it’s important to people and I think debating the flag makes you realize that it’s an important thing and makes people feel a lot of different ways. And if there’s a way to think about a flag that gets everyone as excited as Peter is about it, I think that’s worth thinking about.

Miller: Tim Trainor and Peter Courtney, thanks very much.

Trainor: Thank you.

Miller: Tim Trainor is a managing editor of the Redmond Spokesman. Peter Courtney is former president of the Oregon State Senate.

Let’s listen to another voicemail. This is Linda from Tualatin.

[Voicemail recording]: “When I look at the Oregon State flag, it has all these symbols of settlement and displacement and those include the ships, the exploration that happened, the Conestoga wagon, the plow and then the eagle on the reverse is the beaver. And that’s a very recognizable image for the state as our state animal. There are a few other natural images in the flag. There’s a tree, there’s an elk, there’s the ocean and I’m hoping that we can go through something that creates a good image for the state that is recognizable but doesn’t have all the trappings of colonialism and settlement and displacement.”

Miller: For more on this issue, I’m joined now by Ted Kaye. He is a member of the Portland Flag Association and the Secretary of the North American Vexillological Association. Vexillology, for those of you like me who have just learned this word, is a study of flags. Ted Kaye, welcome to the show.

Ted Kaye: Thank you, Dave. Happy to be here.

Miller: It’s great to have you on. How is what you just heard from our previous guests mirror, if it does, other conversations you’ve heard over the years about city flags or state flags?

Kaye: It is a debate that is perennial. People love their flag because they love the place the flag represents, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that the flag design is an effective design. And Peter Courtney’s love of the flag stems from his love of Oregon and it’s perfectly understandable. The arguments for and against flag change in Oregon have been expressed across the country in many states.

Miller: But Utah and Minnesota went past debates, and they actually changed their flags recently. Why?

Kaye: There are two major reasons that states recently have considered changing their flags. The first is negative and the second is positive. The negative reason is to remove some kind of symbolism that people find offensive, and the positive reason is to improve the design of the flag so it’s a better image, a better brand for the state.

In Georgia and Mississippi, the Confederate flag got taken off. In Minnesota and in Massachusetts, which is also looking at it, there’s the removal of potentially offensive symbolism relating to Native Americans. In Utah, the symbolism wasn’t offensive; the symbolism simply was ineffective. Utah looked at the other three 4-corner states and saw that Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona had great designs and Utah had a seal on a blue background that was indistinguishable from about half of the other US states. So Utah took the bull by the horns and went through a very long public process to come up with a new design for the state flag, and that goes into effect in March of this year.

Miller: I did see a curious detail there though that they’re not completely retiring their old flag. It can still be flown sometimes for ceremonial purposes or during legislative sessions as long as the new state flag is above it. What do you make of that decision?

Kaye: I like to say that flag design and adoption is 10% design and 90% politics and public relations. And in any change like this, there are many people who cling to the prior design because they’re familiar with it. They’re used to it. It’s their own design that they’ve been aware of and seeing. And getting the flag adoption over the finish line in Utah required some political compromises that allowed for the continued use of the old flag.

Miller: Let’s listen to another voicemail. This is Annaisse from Portland.

[Voicemail recording]: “I had a class trip to Salem in grade school and remember being highly disappointed in our state flag because it doesn’t visually read well from a distance. So I couldn’t see all of the interesting things such as the ships in the background on the one side, but I really loved that it was two-sided. So whatever ends up being on both sides, I do think that the beaver needs to be kept. It is small. So if that was bigger, that would be great as well as the land underneath it not reading as well, so possibly redesigned and other bits and pieces added. There isn’t anything speaking to rivers on the flag currently, or salmon. And those are both very important to Oregon, but regardless of what’s put on it, I think that it would be great to have a local artist design it. Somebody who has deep roots in this area.”

Miller: Ted Kaye, what are the hallmarks of a well-designed flag and a poorly designed one?

Kaye: I compiled a flag design guidebook 20 years ago called “Good Flag, Bad Flag.” And it sets out the five basic principles of flag design. And I hasten to say that we don’t really like to say bad flag even though that’s the title of the book, it’s a really ineffective design. And the five basic principles are simplicity, meaningful symbolism, two to three basic colors, no lettering or seals and distinctiveness. And those all come back to the fundamental purposes of a flag, which is signaling at a distance. One needs to be able to see that flag flapping 100 feet away and be able to make out what is on the flag. And then once it’s explained, remember that that symbol represents the place that it represents.

Miller: Oregon’s flag fails on at least three and maybe four of your criteria.

Kaye: Oregon’s flag is what we like to deride as a seal on a bed sheet, an S.O.B. flag.

Miller: Half of it.

Kaye: Half of it. Now talking about the two-sided flag, in some ways, hey, how whimsical and magical that we have the last U.S. state flag that’s two-sided. We weren’t the only one, but other states have changed. We’re the last ones with a two-sided flag. And in some ways, you look at that and say, cool, we’re different, right?

Miller: That’s Peter Courtney’s argument. Don’t become like everybody else.

Kaye: At the same time it makes the flag more expensive than any other state flag. If you look at a flag catalog, there’s usually four levels of state flag prices. There’s a price which is lower the b when it’s more complex and c, when it’s very complex and then the fourth level is Oregon. I mean, it’s ABC and Oregon.

Miller: But why does that matter?  Is it the idea that if it were a lot cheaper, more people would fly it and then we would be a more cohesive state with more state pride? If it’s just state agencies flying, does it matter that it’s a little bit more expensive?

Kaye: I think you’ve touched on a very important point. At first, I’d say that it’s more expensive because it has to be triple thickness. It also doesn’t fly very well because it’s heavy compared to other flags. But you made a very important point and that is, the flag does not belong to the government of the state. The flag belongs to the people, the seal belongs to the government, but the flag of a state belongs to everyone there. And the great state flags, the well-designed state flags - Texas, New Mexico and so on - are flown widely by people all over the state to represent their state. Here in Oregon, very few people will fly the flag of the government of the state compared to those other states where the flags are better designed.

Miller: But there’s a fascinating thing there that I think you’re saying. Texas seems like such a specific case, I almost have to set them aside. So let’s say New Mexico, your argument it’s not that people in New Mexico love their state more but that because their flag is better, they are more likely to fly it?

Kaye: Yes. Although the podcast to Roman Mars makes the case that there may be a circular loop there that by having a better design for a city or a state flag, people love the city or state more. I think that’s a stretch. I think that we are tribal animals and flags are the ultimate icon of our tribal tribalism and whatever flag represents our state, we’re going to want to connect to that flag. It’s just when it’s a poor design, when you can’t make it out at a distance, it fails in its fundamental purpose. We like to say that when a state or a city flag is widely adopted by the people it represents, we start to see it show up as a tattoo,

Miller: Literally.

Kaye: Literally, you see tattoos of great city flags and really well-designed state flags. There aren’t going to be lots of people putting the tattoo of the symbol of the government of the State of Oregon on their skin

Miller: Because it’s a seal and not a standalone image that somehow transcends the government?

Kaye: I would make that case.

Miller: Hmm.

Kaye: Also, it’s just very complex. Also, it’s expensive to make if you want to sew it. If you think of the flag of Maryland, for example, you see it everywhere and it has remix design components that get used all over the state.

Miller: A little bit dizzying, but also sort of fascinating.

Kaye: Yes, yes. Maryland’s flag is unusual because it’s a heraldic banner. It’s the arms of Calvert Lord Baltimore and it’s sort of a throwback to European heraldry, but it’s very effective as a distinctive state flag.

We like to have a test that if a flag is simple enough, it should be able to be drawn by memory by a child. And that’s not just to enfranchise children, that’s really to test whether the flag is simple enough to be seen at a distance and be recognizable to show what it represents.

Miller: I don’t think there is a kid or adult in Oregon right now who could draw our state seal.

Ted Kaye, thank you very much.

Kaye: Thank you. Thank you very much,

Miller: Ted Kaye is a member of the Portland Flag Association and the secretary of the North American Vexillological Association.

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