Oregon senior Senator Ron Wyden on expected Medicaid and social service cuts under Trump administration

U.S. Senators Ron Wyden and Jeff Merkley joined with other senators in a letter to Elon Musk’s so-called Department of Government Efficiency and President Donald Trump urging them to not cut Medicare and Medicaid.

The two programs serve 140 million people nationwide, and in Oregon, the way people receive Medicaid is through the Oregon Health Plan.

Sen. Wyden joins us to discuss protecting the health care these federal programs provide, what Democratic representatives are hearing from their constituents about the rapid take down of the federal government and what he and his party are doing in response.

Note: The following transcript was transcribed digitally and validated for accuracy, readability and formatting by an OPB volunteer.

Dave Miller: From the Gert Boyle studio at OPB, this is Think Out Loud. I’m Dave Miller. We’re going to hear from two members of Oregon’s congressional delegation right now. In a few minutes, we’ll bring you a conversation with Cliff Bentz, the only Republican member of the delegation. We start with Democratic senior Senator Ron Wyden. We spoke yesterday afternoon. That was before the House passed its budget resolution calling for $2 trillion in spending cuts, and $4.5 trillion in tax cuts. I asked Wyden to give us a sense for the situation as it stood.

Ron Wyden: The situation, as you said, in effect on Tuesday afternoon, is the House Republicans are on the floor, and they’re prepared to greenlight something that Donald Trump approved last week, which was an instruction to the Energy and Commerce Committee to deal with and come up with $800 billion in cuts in their jurisdiction. Now, I served on that committee when I was in the House of Representatives. And what I can tell Oregonians is there is no way that committee ‒ which I served on, as I say, when I was in the House ‒ can come up with $880 billion in cuts, which is what the President of the United States wants, without the House clobbering Medicaid.

So that is where we are. The stakes for Oregonians are incredibly important. One out of three people in Oregon get their health insurance through the Oregon Health Plan, through Medicaid. And I believe that these cuts are unconscionable and unsustainable. And I also believe that there are questions about the constitutionality, because Congress has the power of the purse.

Miller: You mentioned about one in three Oregonians are now on the Oregon Health Plan. In some specific counties, especially in more rural ones, the percentage is a lot higher, upwards of 47, 48, 49% in some counties. There are a lot of unknowns here, including whether this is going to pass at all. And if it does, the particular mechanism for the cuts, that has not at all been outlined in any definitive coverage I’ve seen.

But let’s just play this out a little bit. Let’s say the Republicans do get over their internal differences, and they move forward with some kind of budget blueprint that does lead to nearly $900 billion in cuts for Medicaid. What do you think that would actually mean for Oregonians?

Wyden: I believe it would translate to a significant reduction in services, in coverage. You mentioned rural Oregon. Dave, Malheur County, more than half the residents in this deep red eastern Oregon county depend on Medicaid. And I don’t know any way you can do this with sort of budget sleight of hand. You cannot actually deliver on a law that has the key committee directed to reduce cuts by $880 billion.

Miller: There have been some moderate Republicans, or Republicans with large numbers of their own constituents who currently get their healthcare through their state’s versions of Medicaid, who have said “I don’t want to vote for this. I don’t want my constituents' healthcare to be cut.” Where do you see this going?

Wyden: Where I see this going is, if Donald Trump is determined, and I believe he is, because remember, the point of these dollars is to go out and cut taxes for a lot of his friends, the billionaires.

Miller: To extend the current tax break that Congress voted on in 2017.

Wyden: And probably to expand it. I believe he’s gonna, with the extra money from anti-hunger programs and Medicaids and the like, he’s going to supercharge the 2017 tax bill ‒ the last bill ‒ with even more cuts and more benefits for the billionaire crowd, because they’ve been so loyal to him.

And apropos of these moderate Republicans, my guess is they are going to be asked to take a big package, something that will include a lot of other provisions besides this. And if Trump is persuasive, they’ll swallow hard and vote against their constituents. That’s my judgment.

Miller: The process that they are likely to use to pass this massive package would require a simple majority vote in the Senate, as opposed to the 60 vote filibuster hurdle, because this would be under reconciliation. Can you just remind us how that works?

Wyden: Well, reconciliation requires only a simple majority. It’s not yet clear how the process might unfold. But the bottom line in the Senate ‒ because I spent much of last week fighting what we call a vote-o-rama ‒ and the Republicans kept saying in the Senate “we’re not going to do anything to Medicaid. We’re not going to hurt anybody on Medicaid.” But they’ve already begun to actually implement ways that they’re going to hurt folks on Medicaid. They’ve got a nursing home rule that they want to move in the Senate that basically takes the nursing out of nursing homes. And I’ve been fighting that very, very strongly.

They would be using Senate rules to advance policies that hurt the vulnerable who depend on Medicaid. That’s the way it would work in the Senate.

Miller: One of the things that I’ve heard from a number of Democrats over the last month or so is that this time they’re not going to fall for the trap of jumping on every single action by the Trump administration. That instead there’s going to be some kind of triaging to focus on the big picture and the biggest threats. So in the big picture, what do you see as the biggest threats to our constitutional republic right now?

Wyden: Well, on the economy, to distill the Trump economic plan into one straightforward narrative ‒ which is what we battled on in the United States Senate last week, and I kept trying to put Medicaid cuts off the table ‒ the simple narrative in the Senate is the Republicans led by Donald Trump want to cut programs that are essential to Oregonians, like anti-hunger and important healthcare services, and use that money to balloon tax breaks for billionaires. That’s what this is all about.

And Dave, one of the things that Oregonians need to know is that Senate Republicans, unlike the House, are keeping the cuts behind the curtain. In other words, every time my Republican counterparts get up, “we have nothing in this bill that would hurt Medicaid and would hurt the people Ron Wyden is talking about.” And I say, “Okay, if that’s the case, will you join me right now in putting Medicaid cuts off the table?” And they say no.

So when the dance between the House and the Senate starts really moving in tandem, there is no question in my mind that the Republicans are going to try to cut Medicaid. And as the ranking Democrat on the Finance Committee, which has authority over Medicaid, I’ve been leading the cavalry to block ‘em.

Miller: Do you think that large numbers of House members want to face re-election in under two years, if tens of millions of their constituents have lost access to healthcare?

Wyden: Well, let’s put it this way Dave. Donald Trump has persuaded a whole lot of Senate Republicans to vote for nominees that, if it had been a closed-door vote, those nominees would have gotten 20 votes or less. Donald Trump is putting a lot of pressure on Republicans to vote in ways that are contrary to what they’re hearing at home. And in the case of this tax package, they’re going to try to dress it up as having a lot of other things, and hide the Medicaid cuts, and see if they can get their members to swallow. And I just gave you some examples of votes in the United States senate with nominations where if it was behind closed doors, instead of having over 50, they would have had something like 20.

Miller: In recent weeks, there’s been a lot of reporting about the possibility the Democrats could use the threat of a government shutdown as leverage in a budget fight. But I have to say this has confused me, because Elon Musk and Donald Trump have already been very publicly shutting down big parts of the federal government. So why would a threat to shut the government down be effective leverage?

Wyden: Well, I’m somebody who’s never been a fan of shutting down the government. I think the Republicans have got a lot of explaining to do here, and that’s what’s going on now in this period between today and the middle of March when decisions get made. They’re doing a lot of stuff ‒ I was home last weekend ‒ in terms of healthcare research and farmers and veterans. They’ve got to stand up at meetings and explain why they’re doing things that’s going to reduce veterans care. They’re laying people off. I heard about it last weekend. I heard about reductions in healthcare research. And Republicans are in charge, Dave. They have the White House, they have the Senate, they have the House.

And apropos of this question of shutting down the government, the issue is what is their plan? They’re the ones who are in control of the government and they’ve got to lay out something that actually fixes some of the stuff that people are angry about.

Miller: A few weeks ago, a federal judge found that the administration had not followed his order to unfreeze federal funds. After that, when a federal judge temporarily blocked political appointees and special government employees from accessing sensitive Treasury Department information, the vice president said that “judges aren’t allowed to control the executive’s legitimate power.” What happens if the administration simply… I was gonna say starts, but let’s let’s say continues to ignore judicial rulings?

Wyden: Well, the legal system is one where, if the courts make a decision, and for example they say that these 22 year olds that are part of the DOGE operation can’t do what they’re doing, and they decide to do it anyway, the courts have the authority to hold them in contempt, and send out the marshals to put them in places where they’re going to be aware that there are real consequences for acting against the law.

Miller: How likely do you think that is?

Wyden: Well I think that’s what the legal system is all about. I think we are seeing the courts in the last few days increasingly cautious about going along with these sweeping Trump plans. And I’m proud of the fact that I’ve blown the whistle on a lot of them. The reason that we know about the DOGE operations is early in the morning of February 1st ‒ it was a Saturday ‒ we discovered from whistleblowers that these DOGE people were getting into the IRS, because the Treasury Secretary told them about it. I blew the whistle, and six days later there were rallies all over America.

So I’m following up on every one of these. I’m following up on the Medicaid portals. Under the freeze, for example, Oregonians were for hours confused about whether or not they could get information about medicine and whether they could get information about nursing homes and the like. I blew the whistle on that, the Trump people said it would get fixed by the next day. So I’m following up on every one of these things, and I would urge listeners who are following it, we’ve got a place on our webpage where they can be in touch with us and do it confidentially.

Miller: Is it fair to say that as a member of the minority party of a body that the current administration is increasingly treating as irrelevant, that your power comes from the whistleblower megaphone that you’ve just described. I’m wondering where else you have power right now, even though you are the senior senator from Oregon?

Wyden: Dave, we’re using every single tool we can get our hands on.

Miller: Right, but what I’m wondering is what tool do you have besides this one?

Wyden: Well, we just talked about the courts. So, the courts are a tool. Whistleblowing is a second tool. And we’re going to be laying out here in the next few days some additional steps. But certainly at the top of the list…

And remember I just gave you two concrete examples where I stepped in as one of Oregon’s senators, and I protected Medicaid and I protected taxpayers who were trying to figure out what in the hell was going on at the Treasury Department. Those are real examples where, yes, I’m in the minority, but it’s my job to stand up for Oregonians and fight for them, and that’s what I’m doing every day.

Miller: The Trump administration has said that it would begin handpicking which media outlets are allowed to participate in the presidential press pool. What do you see as the repercussions of this?

Wyden: I think that is outrageous, Dave. I’m a First Amendment hawk ‒ people often say that, and I’m proud that they do. We just have to look again to all the tools of government to make sure that the First Amendment isn’t thrown in the trash.

And for your listeners, a little reading of history shows that the founding fathers, many of them actually thought that the First Amendment was more important than government.

Miller: You noted something that we’ve seen, which is that in public, Republican lawmakers seem terrified of crossing President Trump, and for good reason. For the last eight years, people who’ve done that quickly lose their power. They get primaried, they choose to not run for re-election, they cease to be presences in elected office. I’m curious if in private, when talking to your Republican colleagues, you hear a different story?

Wyden: I certainly think, increasingly, Republican senators are troubled about the fact that veterans are going to get hurt, that small businesses are going to get hurt, that healthcare research and operations are going to get hurt. And I believe that people in Oregon see that Medicaid is life or death for them. I think in other parts of the country that’s the case. And I’m just hopeful that a couple of Republicans as we go forward, will do what John McCain did in dealing with the Affordable Care Act.

Miller: Whether or not that means that they won’t be reelected.

Wyden: John McCain dealt with all of the political challenges, and was a hero to many who cared about national security. And certainly that moment when he walked onto the floor of the United States Senate and put his thumb down was a profile in courage. And I’ve taken on big odds and the like in the past, and I’m proud to have been an ally of John McCain and his efforts in the Senate.

Miller: Ron Wyden, we’ll talk again. Thank you.

Wyden: Looking forward to it, Dave. Thanks.

Miller: That was Democratic U.S. Senator Ron Wyden in conversation yesterday afternoon.

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