Exactly three years ago, Russia mounted a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, triggering a war that has killed more than 12,000 civilians, displaced 4 million people internally and created nearly 7 million refugees, according to the United Nations. Today, Russian forces occupy roughly 20% of Ukraine.
Last week, President Trump falsely accused Ukraine of starting the war, called its president, Volodymyr Zelensky, a “dictator” and initiated talks with Russia – but not Ukraine – to end the conflict.
Two members of the Ukrainian American community in the Portland area join us to share their perspectives: Tatiana Terdal, president of the Portland-Lviv Friendship City Association and a board member of the Ukrainian Foundation; and Yulia Brockdorf, a Ukrainian American psychotherapist in Hillsboro who is the co-founder and president of DAWN, a nonprofit which delivers medical supplies and humanitarian aid to Ukraine. Brockdorf and Terdal will speak at a war commemoration event on Monday, which will be held at Pioneer Courthouse Square in Portland from 5-8 p.m.
Note: The following transcript was transcribed digitally and validated for accuracy, readability and formatting by an OPB volunteer.
Dave Miller: This is Think Out Loud on OPB. I’m Dave Miller. Today marks the third anniversary of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine. The attack led to a war that has killed more than 12,000 civilians, displaced 4 million people internally and created nearly 7 million refugees. Under the Biden administration, Ukraine benefited from billions of dollars of U.S. military aid and materiel. The new administration has cast not just that aid, but America’s entire approach to Europe into question. Last week, President Trump falsely accused Ukraine of starting the war. He called its president, Volodymyr Zelensky, a “dictator,” and he started one-on-one negotiations with Russia, excluding the country it invaded.
I’m joined now by two members of the Ukrainian American community in the Portland area. Tatiana Terdal is president of the Portland-Lviv Friendship City Association and a board member of the Ukrainian Foundation. Yulia Brockdorf is a psychotherapist in Hillsboro, and the co-founder and president of the nonprofit DAWN, which provides medical supplies, humanitarian aid and psychotherapy to frontline defenders in Ukraine. They are both taking part in a commemoration event this evening at Portland’s Pioneer Courthouse Square, and they join me now. Welcome back to Think Out Loud to both of you.
Tatiana Terdal: Thank you, Dave. Good to see you.
Yulia Brockdorf: Thank you.
Miller: Yulia, first – what’s top of mind for you on this somber anniversary?
Brockdorf: The most important thing we all focused on is how can we position these conversations that are going on about Ukraine that’s going to result in Ukraine’s victory. The United States and Ukraine had a deal. The U.S. liked the deal, and part of the deal Ukraine held our end of the bargain. We surrendered the third largest nuclear arsenal. And now …
Miller: You mean, back then, at the end of the Cold War?
Brockdorf: Back then, 1994, right. And now we are waiting for our partners to step up and to protect Ukrainian territorial integrity.
Miller: Tatiana, what about you? Just broadly, what are you thinking about on this anniversary?
Terdal: I’m remembering February 2022. I was on different media, asked about Ukraine, about threats to Ukraine, because at the time, remember there were more than 100,000 Russian troops around Ukraine’s borders. And everybody outside of Ukraine was basically just saying goodbye and saying Ukraine would not be able to defend itself. Remember, the U.S. embassy was already moved from the capital Kyiv to the west of Ukraine, the city of Lviv, and the staff were actually spending the night in Poland in the NATO country, because they knew the invasion would be imminent.
So invasion did happen, but Ukraine survived, defended itself, and was able to actually liberate a lot of the territory that was taken and overrun in the first few months of the war. So I’m feeling proud of Ukraine and Ukrainians, and at the same time it is a very somber anniversary because so many people have died, so many people I know are refugees. The city that I visited in 2016 to see the offices of Mercy Corps in Southern Donetsk in the east of Ukraine, that city has been completely destroyed when it was overrun by the Russian troops. So now everybody that I knew there, everybody I met there is now a refugee.
Miller: Yulia, how are you marking this day? I mentioned there’s going to be an event – as far as I know, it is still on right now, despite the heavy rains – at Pioneer Courthouse Square. What can people expect at that event?
Brockdorf: Today, we hope to come together to show strong support. Ukrainian community, American community, people are coming from different states, different cities to stand and show strong support of Ukraine. There will be visual exhibits demonstrating what is happening in Ukraine and the genocide Russia is perpetrating against Ukraine. There will be music. There will be speeches. There will be a moment of solidarity. There’ll be vigil. This will be time for the community to come together, and to really show strength, and to invigorate our each and own resolve to stand with Ukraine.
Miller: Am I right that this was planned before the Trump administration’s recent changes, about-face, with regard to Ukraine policy?
Brockdorf: Yes, this was planned last year, because this is three years of valor of Ukrainian defenders.
Miller: Tatiana, there are a few different pieces of the new administration’s new approach and they’re all really significant. I don’t want to gloss over them. I want to go one-by-one here. Maybe the most shocking was when the president blamed Ukraine for the war, saying, “You’ve been there for three years, you never should have started it. You could have made a deal.” What went through your mind when you first heard that?
Terdal: For me, it was like blaming Poland for the Nazi invasion in 1939 – that’s the similarity. It was a shock. I was just stunned, but I think it is very important to explain to Americans who may be listening to that and starting to think maybe that is true, why it is so wrong.
Miller: There’s one part that is true – this has been going on for three years, following the full-scale invasion, and 11 years since the beginning of the invasion in the southern part of the country. It does seem that many Americans are losing interest in or losing patience in, simply caring less about the plight of people that seem far away. Is that something that you have heard? Have you personally, in the Portland area, experienced a change in the American public’s attitude towards this war?
Terdal: Well, I can see that there is definitely much less news about Ukraine in the media, and that is understandable because there are a lot of things happening in the world. For us Ukrainians, we are keeping up with this every day. I have an app on my phone that tells me every time there is an air raid alert in Lviv. And it’s happening all the time. So I am of course immersed in that, but Americans are not. At the same time ...
Miller: Why do you have that app? You live here, you’re not physically in danger from those air raid sirens or possible rockets. Why do you have that app?
Terdal: Because my family and friends are there. I also have meetings with people in Ukraine and I need to know when they need to go into the air raid shelter. Also, it’s a time for me to basically even check in with my family friends, “Are you OK? Have you survived?” I think I’m not the only one. Many, many Ukrainians have that.
I also want to remind you that not only Ukraine, but a lot of places in Europe were occupied during World War II, and that occupation lasted for years. In 2023, I traveled to Norway, where some of my family lives, and I went to the Museum of Resistance there. I was reminded that Norway was under Nazi occupation for about four years. They were completely occupied, not like Ukraine, which is partially occupied and there is a government in the Ukrainian capital. Norway had a government in exile in the UK. They were completely occupied. They still had resistance. They were waiting and believing that they will be liberated, and they were.
Miller: When you bring up that example, I’m curious what do you want Americans to take from it?
Terdal: That democracy is worth fighting for. Your own country is worth fighting for. Living under occupation is horrible. I also traveled to Poland, because right now you can’t fly into Ukraine. Since 2022, when the Russians attacked, all civilian planes have been grounded, so you have to travel through other European countries. I usually travel through Poland. Poland suffered tremendously in World War II. I want to remind people that it was able to rebuild, and now it’s a flourishing country and a member of NATO. I hope Ukraine will be like that in a few years.
Miller: Yulia, the president, as I mentioned, also called Volodymyr Zelensky, not Vladimir Putin, a dictator. His ostensible reason is that Ukraine hasn’t had elections since 2019. I say ostensible because it’s not totally clear exactly why he’s saying this, maybe it’s simply to curry favor with Putin. What’s the truth here about what elections would entail in the middle of a war?
Brockdorf: Right now, during martial law, it would be very, very difficult to hold true elections, because there are so many people that are not in the country. Also, so many people that are currently under occupation in the territories of Ukraine that are being occupied by the enemy. And there are soldiers that might not be able to go to vote in the precincts how they would typically be voting. The ability to hold true elections would be very difficult right now, and this was the voice of Ukrainian people.
Zelensky won by the large majority: 79%. This was a big land sweep for Zelensky when he became president. And then, without any issues of Ukrainians, Ukrainian spirit and Ukrainian people, we became a subject of this invasion. Ukrainian people are working in all the various areas of life to hold up democracy, to stand for freedom. Yet at the same time, we understand that elections are not very plausible.
Terdal: I want to add that for Ukrainians it seems so obvious that you just can’t have elections right now, during ongoing active invasion. But I was trying to think how to explain to Americans that they would understand it’s obvious. So think about 9/11. If it was not happening on Monday but on Tuesday, election day in New York, with a polling station within the World Trade Center, would you still insist that people go to the World Trade Center and try to vote while the towers are falling? That would be extremely dangerous, unsafe and cruel. And remember, after 9/11, all the civilian aviation was down for several days. It’s been like 9/11 in Ukraine every day, so it would be just simply cruel to have elections, and it would be very unsafe.
Miller: Another issue is the U.S. seemingly trying to coerce Ukraine into giving the U.S. more access to rare earth minerals. And this is a pretty moving piece here, it may be that there are some kind of meetings next week about this. In reporting I’ve seen, it’s not clear what kinds of security guarantees the U.S. would be potentially offering in return.
Yulia, first – how do you think about this issue in particular, “Yeah, we might help you, but we want access to your mineral wealth?”
Brockdorf: There tends to be the current idea that the U.S. is doing Ukraine a favor. Ukraine has held her end of the bargain by giving up the nukes to Russia. The U.S. made the promise, guarantee, the assurance that Ukrainian territorial integrity will be protected. It is not … a deal has been made. Now, it is up for the U.S. to execute, and come and really put out the resources that go with that deal. To try to manhandle Ukraine into giving up her resources, to create new deals that are made by President, not made by Congress, is putting the Ukrainian position to negotiate, not from a place of power but put Ukraine on her knees. And this is not good for the United States, and this is not good for global security, and this is not good for democracy.
We know the people of the U.S. are freedom-loving people, people who respect their word and who respect commitments they make. And here the United States is attempting to pander to a bully, to negotiate with the bully about how they will behave, instead of putting the bully at heel.
Miller: Tatiana, I mentioned the beginning of seemingly bilateral meetings – excluding Ukraine – in this process, negotiations to end the war. Are you assuming that’s going to continue, that Ukraine will essentially be shut out of these conversations?
Terdal: It’s hard to tell. I mean, things are changing every day. Ukraine needs to be at the negotiation table. I mean, there is a motive here. Nothing about us without us. I mean, that should be true about Ukraine too. Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine.
Miller: What have you heard from members of the Ukrainian American community in Oregon or Southwest Washington who voted for Donald Trump in November?
Terdal: I did have one person contact me, somebody we’ve been arguing … I mean, Ukrainians like to talk and discuss politics. We’d argued even during 2016 elections about who would be the better candidate for our community within the U.S., and for foreign peace and foreign affairs. We also talked about it prior to the 2024 election.
This person did vote for President Trump, and he did contact me to apologize, to say that I was right. It was just so unpredictable, the current policy.
Brockdorf: I spoke with a number of Americans who have voted for the current president, who have been strong supporters of Ukraine, and they said that they are absolutely appalled, should they have known how Trump will plan his policy in relation to Ukraine, they would have never had his vote. I see ...
Miller: Have you been surprised by this? I mean, just to be clear, President Trump, his embrace of Putin in various ways, it goes back to his transactional nature, and what he’s asking now from Zelensky, it didn’t come out of nowhere. He’s long expressed admiration, at the very least, for the way Putin and other strongmen wield power, the kind of power they have. He asked Zelensky to dig up dirt on Hunter Biden, in exchange for U.S. military aid. All of this is, it’s not even that far back in the past.
Brockdorf: So, surprise, no, but I think many of the constituents were surprised. People truly believe in goodness and there are some good reforms that will take place, yet what they see happen, I think it’s a betrayal to the people who actually have voted for Trump. And I think people feel and they communicate that betrayal. And unless something changes, that’s going to probably undermine many other policies, not just of the administration, but also coming two years from now when we will be voting on members of representatives. So, that will matter.
Miller: Yeah, Tatiana, please …
Terdal: During the first Trump administration, there was a strong foreign policy team that I think was able to give good advice to President Trump at the time. Even though he expressed his admiration for Putin, the policy still continued in support of European democratic allies. So I think there was an expectation that his team during the second administration would be as qualified, as professional. But right now, it seems that most people at the top in the cabinet just don’t have much foreign policy experience, and I don’t think any of them have ever visited Ukraine.
Miller: Given everything we’ve been talking about, I’m curious what you imagine it would be like to go back to Ukraine, say, in the coming year, as a Ukrainian-American, as somebody who is a part of both of these cultures and countries.
Brockdorf: I’ll be going back to Ukraine in a couple of weeks, so it’s something I do several times a year. So going back to Ukraine. And I know, Tatiana, you’ve just been in Ukraine. You spent quite a few months there as well. But, going back to Ukraine right now, going back both in the western part of Ukraine and going all the way to the places of the full-on active war zone, it’s a different experience. It is difficult to put into words because the culture, the spirit and interaction of these people are very different.
When you enter the east, when you enter the active war zone, every person who is there is serving a particular purpose for a specific mission. It is organized. It is clear. And you could just almost see how every vehicle that goes someplace or comes from someplace, every individual engaged in deliberate acts for the truly same goal: Freedom of our nation, our future. And to be in a place where, in mass, people are so focused on the same objective … it’s absolutely incredible. Even though it’s life threatening, it’s absolutely incredible.
Miller: All of that though, I think, would have been true at most times that you visited in the last three years. What’s different is the very real possibility that American financial aid and weapons could soon be completely drying up. That is the difference, a decision made by your new home country. And I’m wondering how you’ll respond to Ukrainians if they ask you about that.
Brockdorf: They already do. They already do, like, “What are you guys doing there? What’s happening to your country? Are you people not standing up? Are you people not speaking up?” There are decisions that have been made that just go against any reasonable person’s opinion of how life truly unfolds, and what we expect from democracy and from human-to-human interactions. The decisions are made at the top for everybody else, versus democracy, the decision made by the people of the country.
Terdal: I would remind Ukrainians that most of the American public is with Ukraine. There are polls showing that most Americans support Ukraine. I was also grateful to hear from the members of the first Trump administration – Mike Pence, John Bolton – strong support for Ukraine. So people who are in the Republican Party who were part of the first Trump administration are speaking out.
Miller: People who no longer wield significant power.
Terdal: Yes, but they are still voices that people listen to, hear and respect, because Mike Pence was vice president. So he’s an important voice.
Miller: Tatiana Terdal and Yulia Brockdorf, thanks very much.
Brockdorf / Terdal: Thank you.
Miller: Tatiana Terdal is the president of the Portland-Lviv Friendship City Association, board member of the Ukrainian Foundation. Yulia Brockdorf is a psychotherapist based in Hillsboro, co-founder and president of DAWN. It’s a nonprofit that delivers medical supplies and humanitarian aid to Ukraine.
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