It’s an open race this fall for Oregon Secretary of State. The office oversees elections and audits of state agencies, among other responsibilities. Interest in the race has been ignited recently by the discovery that the Oregon DMV accidentally registered hundreds of noncitizens to vote through an error in the state’s Motor Voter system. If voters pass Measure 117 in November, the winner of this race would also be responsible for implementing ranked choice voting for statewide elections.
Dennis Linthicum is a Republican state Senator representing Klamath Falls. Democrat Tobias Read is the state treasurer. They join us to talk about why they’re running for secretary of state and what they hope to achieve if elected.
Note: The following transcript was transcribed digitally and validated for accuracy, readability and formatting by an OPB volunteer.
Dave Miller: This is Think Out Loud on OPB. I’m Dave Miller. We start today with a debate for Oregon Secretary of State. There was a time when this position did not get too much popular attention. That’s not really the case anymore. For one thing, Oregonians have a recent reminder that the secretary of state is next in line to become governor. That’s how Kate Brown first became the state’s chief executive. For another, the secretary of state oversees elections. And we recently learned that the Oregon DMV mistakenly registered more than 1,500 people who had not provided proof of American citizenship.
And then there is the issue of the most recently-elected secretary of state, Shemia Fagan, who had been seen as a rising star in the Democratic Party, resigned from office in May of last year. She did that after Willamette Week reported that she had signed a lucrative contract with a cannabis company at the same time that her office was auditing state regulations on cannabis businesses.
I am joined now by the top two candidates vying to be the next secretary of state. Dennis Linthicum is a Republican state Senator from Klamath Falls. Tobias Read is a former Democratic lawmaker who is in his second term as state treasurer. Welcome to you both.
Tobias Read: Thank you.
Dennis Linthicum: Thank you. It’s good to be here.
Miller: It’s great to have you both on. We’re going to get to specifics about some of those issues I mentioned in just a second, but I want to start with the big picture. How do you plan to reestablish trust in this office? And Dennis Linthicum, I flipped a coin before the show and you can go first.
Linthicum: Thank you. I think trust in the office has to come from a true understanding of divergent perspectives. This means genuine empathy, not just platitudes about what it means to have divergent perspectives. How will the government prioritize the majority party’s narrative over its fiduciary responsibility and the minority party’s perspective? The only answer to this, and to ensure trust in the office, is through freedom of speech. We must defend free speech whether true, or hateful, or intolerable. These are just opinions. I could say, I hate green beans and you could say you love green beans. The government should not be involved in telling the public who’s right about the taste or style of green beans that got cooked over the weekend. It’s irrelevant to our getting along together, navigating through what is truth or fiction, how we use public opinion.
The government, if anybody, is capable of stifling insight and opinion … the government is. They have the economic resources, they have the bandwidth, they’re certainly capable of coordinating and organizing, deploying propaganda of any number of sorts. And this is why I have been running a campaign against the secretary of state’s MDM policies, which is misinformation, disinformation, and information. This is not artificial intelligence because there is no such thing as artificial intelligence. This is just a bucket, a big bucket of words that can get interpreted left or right, right or wrong, appropriate or inappropriate. And this is a terrible place to find Oregon in. So right now, my campaign is providing the surest way to success in Oregon [which] is a truly open fair election process, one of the foundation principles and ethics of our American Republic.
Miller: Tobias Read, how do you plan to reestablish trust in the office?
Read: Thanks for the question, Dave, and thanks for the conversation today. I think the way to reestablish trust in the secretary of state’s office is to follow through and to deliver the results that Oregonians need and want. We’ve seen a lot of turnover in the secretary of state’s office, as I’m sure we’ll talk about. And that’s unfortunate because it’s at the center of so much that has to do with who we are as a state.
You talked already about elections and people need to have confidence in our electoral systems. On top of that, the secretary of state is the auditor for all of Oregon with the responsibility of making sure that tax dollars are spent wisely and effectively, so that people are getting the results that they want, making sure that programs and agencies are doing what they need to. And the secretary of state is also where every business in Oregon registers if they want to operate in Oregon.
So these things are about professional leadership, about stability. And I’m really proud of the record that I’ve built as state treasurer with a large staff, making sure that they have the resources they need, the standards to which they will be held, making sure that accountability is enforced, and delivering for Oregonians. I think that is the way to reestablish trust in the secretary of state’s office, as well as the key priority of making sure that we’re acting in a nonpartisan way, carrying out laws and enforcing standards without regard for who is involved. Confidence comes from execution. And that’s what I want to do as secretary of state.
Miller: Tobias, let me stick with you. I want to turn squarely to the shocking news that came out in recent weeks that the Oregon DMV, in managing the state’s automatic voter registration system, registered more than 1,500 people who did not provide proof of American citizenship. When that number rose recently to about 1,500, the governor called for the DMV to pause automatic voter registration. How would you approach this issue, as secretary of state, going forward?
Read: Well, I’ve been really clear from the start that these are unacceptable errors on the part of the DMV and the secretary of state’s office. I am glad that they are being discovered and that they are finally being given the attention that they deserve. But I’m appalled that they happened in the first place.
It’s also important that we step back and remember what we’re trying to do here. I think it is the right thing, better for the state, to try to make sure that everyone who is eligible to vote has an opportunity to do that and finds that convenient. But that has to be backed up with appropriate policies and procedures, and we have to make sure that those policies and procedures are being executed accurately. It is clear that there have been mistakes on both of those fronts.
So I’m glad that the governor has begun this comprehensive external evaluation. I think that’s appropriate, but that evaluation has to focus on both of those categories so that we make sure we eliminate and reduce the possibility of those errors continuing. That comprehensive review has to include both of those categories. We have to make sure that people are held accountable. And if I’m secretary of state, I will make sure that that happens.
Miller: Dennis Linthicum. How would you approach this particular issue as secretary of state?
Linthicum: Thanks for the question. It’s appropriate that this conversation came up because your first question is how would you restore the integrity of the office? And currently the secretary of state’s office is suffering from what appears to be a single-sided or one-sided effort. And I think that’s really the problem – we see the governor calling for an external audit because her own internal audits (i.e. the office of secretary of state and the office that my proponent is proposing) would be slanted towards the Democrat majority instead of towards free and fair play for all individuals.
The fallacy of the election mistakes that were made by DMV rests with data collection and data
validation. We’re all aware of the phrase “garbage in and garbage out.” If you don’t validate the data … for example, you say, what are your three initials? And somebody says 123, obviously those are numbers, not alphabetic letters or initials. So there should be a validation routine in the software that says, oops, this is an error.
With regard to the investigation coming from DMV, what they’re doing is going to source documents. Your driver’s license is a Wyoming driver’s license or a foreign driver’s license. Are you a US citizen? And it’s an affirmation request. For the passport, it’s the same thing. We have on record a French passport. Are you a U.S. citizen? Which is legit, they could be a U.S. citizen. There was no validation training from the secretary of state. There was no software validation and verification embedded within the software routines – and this is by design.
There is another giant loophole that nobody seems to have discovered yet, which is House Bill 4133. [It] allows anybody to register to vote in the state of Oregon with the last four digits of their social security number. And there is no source document that you can, quote, “investigate” that will identify an individual based on only four digits of their social security number. This is easy to see if you went to the Lottery office today and said, “I got four of the last super lotto digits out of nine. Where’s my money?” They would laugh you out of the office. You cannot use four digits of a social security number for anything. You cannot use it to buy alcohol, you cannot buy cigarettes. You can’t even buy a little nitrogen charger for your whipped cream maker.
So at some point, we are living in a false paradigm where we think that everything is under control because the Democrat majority has passed these rules and these laws. And it ought to be an affront to every voter who wants their voice to count.
Miller: Let me move on to another issue. And if you can both have slightly shorter answers, we can get to more of these questions. I want to give voters a chance to hear. Sticking with you, Dennis Linthicum – would you seek to make any changes to Oregon’s vote-by-mail system?
Linthicum: Vote-by-mail system is easy. So it is extremely popular. Vote-by-mail is also a legislative action, so the secretary of state cannot change vote-by-mail. I would be bound to follow the rules and laws that have been set by the legislature, and would do that.
However, I would use the soapbox, the bully pulpit if you will, from the secretary of state’s office position to describe the hazards like we were just discussing – data integrity, data collection and data verification. All of these, if they’re not done correctly, as we see in the controversy swirling around the secretary of state’s office today, actually harm the votes of all the people who are enjoying the vote-by-mail productivity.
Miller: Tobias Read, how would you approach Oregon’s vote-by-mail system?
Read: Well, I want to be clear about something first. The secretary of state doesn’t work for the governor, an independent constitutional authority. So, hearing something about the governor’s secretary of state is not accurate. I think Senator Linthicum is being a little disingenuous about his opposition to vote-by-mail. Hearing that he will follow the will of voters is great. But that doesn’t square with his decision to be a party to a lawsuit that sought to overturn vote-by-mail, a suit that went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court and was rejected.
In addition to that, I think the changes need to be about ensuring good execution, working with the clerks around the state to make sure that people have confidence in the way that these controls are in place and that elections are carried out.
Miller: I want to turn to one of the issues that Dennis Linthicum brought up earlier. This is a program called Logically that Oregon and Washington, and I think some other states, use to sort of to look through social media and to see if there are phrases or posts that are spreading misinformation or disinformation about elections in particular, that then the secretary of state or various county clerks could then provide opposite messaging to.
Dennis, I’ll give you a chance to talk more about that. But Tobias Read, first of all, would you continue using this program?
Read: Well, I want to make sure that the freedom of speech is not infringed. There is a difference of course between people expressing their opinions and their views when it comes to elections and candidates. There’s a difference between that and threatening and spreading misinformation. So I think there are ways to to understand what misinformation is being spread without infringing on people’s free speech rights. And I would be very diligent in making sure that we are navigating that line appropriately.
Miller: Dennis Linthicum, I’m looking at one of the recent reports from this company, and they say that some folks are saying that Oregon election officials will commit election fraud by calling the 2024 presidential election before all ballots are counted. The recommended countermeasure to that from this company is to provide public messaging about Oregon’s elections procedures and laws for counting ballots and certifying elections. Basically to say “this is how we do this.”
How does explaining what counties or the state is going to do infringe on anybody’s freedom of speech?
Linthicum: That example that you use is a nice example that fits within the well constrained boundaries. What actually happens with logical AI, which exists in 34 different states in the US, is that it is utilized to provide counter-messaging, even when somebody says, “I don’t think my vote was counted.” Now, that’s a fair statement and you can call that misinformation. You could counteract that with saying, “No, every vote gets counted.” But the truth is if you were to call the secretary of state’s office and say, “Did my vote get counted?” They would tell you “yes” or “no.” They know that, and then you could ask, “Did I vote for person A or person B,” and they have no idea.
So there’s this giant disconnect between what we know and pretend to know, and what the state portrays as being fact. So when somebody thinks their vote has been disenfranchised, which has happened a lot in both Democrat and Republican races throughout the nation, that individual has the right to express their grievance, their concern and their request for information.
Read: I got to point out something here. I think there is kind of a gap between what the senator is trying to tell people right now and his real track record. He’s been unwilling so far to commit to certifying an election if he were secretary of state if he disagreed with the outcomes. In fact, he doesn’t even acknowledge the 2020 election result. I mean, you should ask him right now if he things Joe Biden won the 202 election.
Linthicum: Let’s go at this since we have the time here. But it’s perfectly legitimate for environmentalists to bring a lawsuit about forest policy. Then why in the world isn’t it legitimate for somebody in any precinct, in any state, in any county of Oregon to bring a lawsuit that says, wait, I don’t think this was done appropriately?
Read: You can read the judgment from the appeals court and the fact that the U.S. Supreme Court agreed with it in rejecting your lawsuit.
Linthicum: The point is that we requested source documents from Jackson County. And Jackson County said, sure, we’ll give you those documents if you can provide us a check for just under a million dollars – $982,867.17. That’s how precise this is. They knew …
Read: Senator …
Linthicum: They knew they wanted a million dollars from a single citizen before they would show us the records. Without that record, the Supreme Court says …
Read: Senator, did Joe Biden win the election in 2020?
Linthicum: There is no basis for that claim. You haven’t seen the evidence.
Read: Did Biden win the election in 2020?
Linthicum: Senator Biden has been president for four years and you’re asking a question like that?
Read: Well, I haven’t heard an answer.
Miller: Yeah. If you want to answer that question … if not, we’ll move on to the next issue here. But Dennis Linthicum, do you want to answer that question?
Linthicum: The answer is irrelevant. President Biden has been in office for four years. Vice President Kamala Harris is now the Democratic nominee without being in a single primary, without receiving a single vote in any primary. And Tobias is going to interrupt me here and say that’s because we want to save democracy. There’s no votes going on here that anybody can count or attest to.
Miller: Let me move on to another issue because we only have about two minutes left.
Linthicum: You bet.
Miller: Tobias Read, you can go first. What would you want to focus on in terms of audits? You have a minute for that.
Read: I want to make sure that audits are based on data and on risk analysis, not on an agenda of weaponization or to function in service of an extremist agenda. We have a lot more appetite for audits than we have capacity. So I think we have to be focused on criteria to determine where we can get the best bang for the audit buck.
And for me, there are three criteria. One is making sure that it is focused on areas where we are spending a lot of money and not getting the results that we want. A good example of that is housing. It’s also education, as I think you’ll hear later in your program today where we’re not getting the results that we want. Second is where we have a long history of underperformance. Information technology might be an example of that – that’s obviously going to be important, going forward. And the third, for me, it’s places where the state has a direct responsibility for the well-being of Oregonians. That might be foster care or people who are incarcerated, making sure that dollars are delivering the results that people want so that we can continue to get better at that and reduce our risk, and making sure that those findings are in front of decision makers. So people can make better choices going forward.
Miller: Dennis Linthicum, one minute to you – how would you prioritize audits?
Linthicum: You bet. I would prioritize audits by those agencies that have the largest impact, whether it’s across resources like water resources, environmental quality, education, transportation … even the Department of Treasury has wasted enormous amounts of money in their new headquarters building, reportedly over $2,000 a square foot, to build that facility on Hawthorne Avenue. And these are things that should be audited. The debits and credits may add up, there may be a lot of resources, but does it actually comply with our regulations? Are we optimizing our resources? Are we allocating our tax dollars wisely? And are we addressing unique circumstances that are appropriate to the citizens living in the state of Oregon? I think these are all issues that we should stay on top of, and audits remain the best way to ensure that Oregonians are being served wisely.
Miller: Dennis Linthicum and Tobias Read, thanks very much.
Read: Thank you.
Linthicum: Thank you. Bye bye.
Miller: Dennis Linthicum and Tobias Read are both running for secretary of state. Dennis Linthicum is the Republican state Senator from Klamath Falls. Tobias Read is Democratic state treasurer.
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