Oregon sustainability pioneers push refillable glass bottles for beer and wine  

When Matt Swihart started Double Mountain Brewery in Hood River, Oregon, in 2007, his vision was to sell beer in the most ecologically sustainable way possible: in reusable bottles, which would be returned, cleaned and refilled, to be sold again. He says it wasn’t a new idea at all — this was common for all kinds of beverages in the early 20th century. And it wasn’t even novel — in other countries, refillable beverage containers occupy a solid share of the market. Nevertheless the regional infrastructure didn’t exist, so the company started small and took its time. The game changed in 2018 when the Oregon Beverage Recycling Cooperative partnered with Double Mountain to help develop standard refillable glass beer bottles that any brewery in the state could use.

Now, Newberg, Oregon-based company Revino is working with a number of vintners to put their wine in its returnable, refillable bottles. And while the company is still scaling up all the infrastructure needed, it’s gotten significant traction already, with Willamette Valley Vineyards announcing its rollout of over 1,500 cases of one of its Pinot Noirs being released in Revino bottles.

We talk with Double Mountain Brewery’s Matt Swihart and Revino co-founder Adam Rack about the significant environmental benefits of glass bottles over other kinds of containers, and the role they see refillables playing more broadly in helping states meet climate goals.

Note: The following transcript was created by a computer and edited by a volunteer.

Dave Miller: From the Gert Boyle Studio at OPB, this is Think Out Loud. I’m Dave Miller. For much of the 20th century, beer was sold in reusable bottles, bottles that could be returned, sterilized and refilled to be sold again. That still happens in some countries but it’s all but disappeared in the U.S. Some Oregonians are working to change that.

Matt Swihart is the founder and brewmaster at Double Mountain Brewery. In 2018, he partnered with the Oregon Beverage Recycling Cooperative to create standard refillable bottles that any brewery in the state can use. Adam Rack is doing something similar with wine bottles. He is the co-founder and sustainability steward at the Newberg-based company Revino. They both join us now. It’s great to have both of you on the show.

Matt Swihart: Thank you so much.

Adam Rack: Yeah, thank you.

Miller: Matt, first. I want to start with the climate change, the carbon emissions piece of this. What’s the difference in carbon emissions between a single-use beer bottle and a reusable one?

Swihart: Yeah, a single-use beer bottle, as well as a single-use aluminum can, involves a certain amount of carbon through its life cycle and most of that is in its manufacturing. The bulk of the carbon usage is the original manufacturing of that package. So by reuse, you cut that almost in half. The life cycle carbon of a reusable beer bottle, like the one we use in Oregon, is about 69 times less than a single-use recycled beer bottle.

Miller: And what if you only reuse it once? I mean, I imagine the more you use it, the more smelting or whatever you’re not doing. But if you just do it once, is that a sizable difference?

Swihart: That figure that I gave you assumes about a 20- to 25-time reuse of that product, which is a good lifespan for a reusable bottle because they’re quite robust. But even one-time use cuts that carbon almost in half. There’s a little bit of carbon usage in transportation, back and forth to the brewery from the manufacturer to the cleaning facility. But again, the bulk of that carbon is tied up in the – well, bauxite mining if your aluminum cans – the melting down process of a new bottle.

Miller: A can of beer takes up less space. It weighs a lot less. If you’re talking about an empty container, aluminum versus the glass, it weighs a lot less. So I imagine that does add to the cost of transportation and the fossil fuels of transportation. How much does that cut into the emissions savings that you’re talking about?

Swihart: Yeah, cans are a great example. And honestly, the aluminum industry has done an amazing job greenwashing their process because they really do sell it for the reduced transportation costs, the lower fuel, the tighter space on the trucks. But again, the shipping costs for beer bottles or beer cans are miniscule in terms of what goes into the original package. So there are savings in shipping beer and cans across the state, but it’s in the single digit range of the life carbon of that package. So by using a reuse structure, again, it’s magnitudes of 10 up to 100 that are less for that single-use package.

Miller: Adam, how do wine bottles compare in terms of all of these questions? If you’re talking about crushing up a wine bottle, a single-use one, versus reusing them?

Rack: Yeah. It’s a different market. Obviously, we’re tied to glass. We use glass. It’s our tradition in the wine space, but wine bottles are heavier, they’re bigger, and we’ve had this long transition towards lighter weight glass. But the glass industry has been around for 100-plus years and there’s a limit to how light you can make a bottle.

Miller: Does “light” just mean thinner, or is it actually a different way of melting that sand or however you do it?

Rack: It’s thinner.

Miller: OK.

Rack: At the end of the day, our easiest comparison is saying, does it make more sense to wash your pint glass at home, put it through the dishwasher, or crush it, melt it, go buy a new one at the store every time? So it’s a very easy thought process.

Miller: Just to be clear, this idea, as I mentioned in my intro, of reusing glass bottles, it’s not at all new. Why did it cease to become the norm?

Swihart: Well, I think, in the seventies, it was the norm, ubiquitously, throughout the United States and still is across the world, where reusable beer bottles and soda bottles are used throughout many countries. And so in the seventies, there was consolidation of players, consolidation of bottling plants for even larger and larger facilities to have some economies of scale that way. And there was a marketing push for individual packaging, for individual breweries, soda pop manufacturers, etcetera. So that branding effort to make a unique package that was unique to your brand, to identify with the consumer, helped that market event. It’s just straight capitalism.

Miller: So we have the stubby beer bottle, we have the long neck and the shape of the bottle was part of our total branding package.

Swihart: Yes, and think about a Heineken bottle that’s green, that stands out on the shelf. And so many companies were looking at ways to differentiate themselves. And that led to the decline in reuse packaging.

Rack: At the same time, you also saw that that rise in recycling is our solution and we can dismiss the problems. Bottle bills, even Oregon’s Bottle Bill was supposed to include support for reuse within that initial bill back in 1971.

Miller: Well, what happened?

Rack: Well, it spiked right after that bill passed; we saw a huge increase in the amount of reasonable containers in Oregon. And then it really petered out as, as those single-use containers became the shiny ones on the shelf. We decided, well, recycling is our solution as well. So pass it on: once it gets in the bin, you’re safe.

Miller: So I’m wondering in the decades that have followed, if generations of Americans have gotten used to single-use containers as opposed to reusable ones, if part of the education you have to do now is to … I guess that the short version of this question is, are Americans squeamish now about reusable bottles?

Swihart: I think they are initially and I certainly see that feedback from some of my customers. But through education efforts, through all of our PR work, and really contact with our servers at our restaurants, making a face-to-face communication and telling them about the system … once we can describe a reuse system to our customers, they’re our customers for life. We have loyal folks that are driving their beer bottles home from vacation so they can bring it back to our pubs for reuse. So once people are into it – and I would assume it would be similar in the wine industry world, perhaps even more so – you really do generate intense loyalty to your brand and to the bottle itself.

Miller: So what was your starting point, Matt, when you, at Double Mountain, decided you wanted to go to refillables? Where did you start?

Swihart: Well, I mean, just nostalgically, I grew up in the upper Midwest, reusable beer bottles were quite common. And so that’s the system that I saw and grew up with, of returning those bottles back to the package store to get a refund. And you repeat the process and do it again. So when I started a brewery in the mid-2000s, I thought a way to differentiate my brand would be to choose a European-style looking container that was reusable. And try to hark into and focus in on that nostalgia, and the increase in quality for a glass bottle, and that environmental footprint of having the least impact on the environment.

Miller: Where did you get your bottles from?

Swihart: We originally sourced them out of Germany. It was a very common bottle that was used throughout. They’ve got two basic 500 ml bottles in Germany. And so we chose one that was very attractive to us, that felt good in our hand, it was nice to drink a beer out of. So we did that for a number of years, until the OBRC came along and then offered us an opportunity to help design a new beer bottle that would be made in the state of Oregon, that we could sell to many breweries and start a reuse system on a statewide basis. And that’s what we did. We jumped on that.

Miller: How does it work right now? How do returns for reuse work in Oregon with these bottles?

Swihart: Well, OBRC, the Recycling Cooperative’s got a wonderful system in their Bottle Drops. So you can go to a Bottle Drop with, I think it’s called the Green Bag program, and you can collect a variety of containers. It doesn’t have to be all reusable. Recycled containers, aluminum, glass – it all goes into one bag. And you’ve got an individual account and you just drop your bag off. You don’t have to stick around. The OBRC will sort that bag into reusable and recyclables, and then credit your account or even donate it to OPB if you want. So they’ve got a wonderful system.

Miller: And then behind the scenes, what happens to the bottles?

Swihart: Behind the scenes, the recycled ones go off for recycling. The reusables get collated together, palletized and then cleaned … currently they’re being cleaned in Canada through a Labots-type facility, because they have a wonderful reuse system in Canada. So they get cleaned, shipped back and then resold to us so we can reuse that reusable package.

Miller: Who’s paying for all of that? I mean, what you’re talking about is a lot of processing, a lot of shipping, cleaning and then shipping back. Is that up to the beer maker who chooses to use your bottles?

Swihart: It’s built into the economics of the system. The statewide system has priced it in a way that their new glass is slightly less expensive than what it actually costs them to manufacture and to ship out. But then their clean glass is priced at the same amount, which is more than their cleaning cost. So it’s built in to assume a certain amount of reuse, so it all roughly pays for itself. And what the brewery or the manufacturer would see is whatever the direct cost is. As an example, if I would buy brand new glass, one way glass, it would cost a certain amount. We’ll make up a number, let’s say it’s 35 cents. My reuse system is about 22 cents, 25 cents. And so I can save about half the cost by using this reusable product. It’s the highest quality, it’s the best for the environment and it’s my lowest cost. So it’s a no brainer for me.

Miller: Adam, what about wine bottles that can be recycled, but they’re not a part of our now 10 cent return system? Does that change, currently, the way you can do this?

Rack: Yeah, we’re a unique market. I mean, the wine industry here in Oregon is looking for solutions to their problem, which is packaging waste. 30% to 60% of those emissions come from the packaging. And they have a really good connection with their customers. I think Double Mountain has a very good model because he has a restaurant. He can talk to people, his servers can educate consumers that come in and visit and purchase these bottles. Then they go out to the retail shelves and buy them again.

Now, with the wine side, we’re in that conversation, we’re looking where the bottle bill goes. This is a decision that the wine industry has to make and a bill has to be passed. Otherwise, we fall into what’s called EPR. Either direction …

Miller: What is EPR?

Rack: Extended producer responsibility. So we’re responsible for paying for the end of life recycling of our trash as an industry. Now within that program under the DEQ here, there is funds, there is support for reuse. So we’re kind of waiting to see whether it goes that way or whether OBRC becomes a partner, because it’s going to be in the Bottle Bill.

Miller: Are those active discussions among lawmakers right now, to add wine bottles to the returnables list?

Swihart: They certainly are and in multiple states.

Rack: Yeah, and California has already added wine bottles; Maine as well. So we’re kind of running behind now. We used to be the leaders in the Bottle Bill, but now we’re kind of falling behind. So it’s about time to modernize. It’s been a while.

But the bigger conversation I think is, where do wineries fit? And they have that voice, they have wine clubs. So they’re a direct return location. Any of our partner wineries that have a location, they’re a return location and they’re expected to take back any returnable bottles that come back to them. So if you buy wine from AV winery, you can take it back to another producer like Willamette Vineyards, for instance.

Miller: How much do people actually recycle their wine bottles, as opposed to just throwing them away?

Rack: It’s difficult. I mean, it depends on the part of the state you’re in. If you’re down in the Rogue Valley, for instance, you have pretty limited options. You might have a collection bin for glass, but you have to drive it to that bin. It’s in the center of town and there’s maybe only one, but you also don’t know if that bin will be recycled or if it’s also going to go to the landfill and be reused. So the current state of glass recycling in Oregon, we do better than most states, but nationwide, it’s a pretty abysmal rate. About 31% to 33% is recycled.

Miller: Matt, I want to turn back to the question of marketing, which, as you said, was a big reason why we’re in the position we are now with all of these single-use bottles and now actually, a lot of single-use cans. How have you approached this issue with other brewers? I’m thinking in particular about cans, that now … first of all, so much in the last, I don’t know, 15 years, it seems like there’s been a huge shift to cans …

Swihart: Can usage has exploded.

Miller: And part of that seems like with cans, beer makers, beer marketers have a pretty complete canvas to play with that they fill up. Whereas, with one of your bottles, there’s a label, which gives marketers less room to play with. Is this an issue that breweries bring up with you?

Swihart: It is an issue that they bring up and I am envious of the billboard that exists on a can to create really intriguing art that would pull a customer in. It’s a great opportunity. So we have a little bigger challenge to work with a smaller footprint to make that happen. We do a lot of work with the case design that carries the bottles around. And of course, a six pack carrier is another big broad billboard, if you will, that can tell our package. Then we try to promote, also, just the statewide reuse system with the OBRC, both on the beer bottle and on our six pack carrier as well.

Miller: Oh, do you mean to make the refillable-ness of it part of the allure?

Swihart: It is the story.

Miller: That’s a good overall story, but that doesn’t help you if you want to differentiate from the people next door to you who are also in that same system.

Swihart: No, I mean, ultimately I have to make good beer, right? It has to taste good. You have to smell the hops and have a certain amount of alcohol to it. So, yeah, that is a goal, and a way to differentiate ourselves, and have unique recipes that we bring to the table. But also to build in with that, through the multiple decisions you make as a business person, is you lay upon goodness upon goodness upon goodness. So we have our sustainability efforts with solar power that we do at the brewery, with our environmental packaging. And we use great hops, and we use local ingredients, and we have wonderful fresh water. So this is all part of the story that builds a whole image together.

Miller: How do you think about this in terms of plastic reduction efforts? I mean, we’ve been talking about aluminum and glass, but there is plastic involved in this too, right?

Swihart: The plastic challenge for the aluminum industry is there’s a holder. They’re called packtech carriers and there’s a couple of different designs. But it’s the thing that holds all the cans together …

Miller: The rigid plastic ones that have become ubiquitous in recent years.

Swihart: There is a recycling effort to try to reuse those containers and we take them back for other breweries as well. But it is plastic, you’re generating plastic that ends up in oceans, in landfills, etcetera. And then, the dirty secret about aluminum cans is, they spray a plastic liner on the inside of the can to keep the aluminum from reacting with a beer because beer is slightly acidic. Wine is slightly acidic and it would corrode the aluminum and it would taste awful. And so there’s a microfilm of plastic that’s blown into all aluminum cans to protect that can from the beer and the wine environment.

Miller: And you don’t need that with glass, because it’s inert?

Swihart: No, glass is the most beautiful material in the world. It’s the perfect material for packaging. It’s inert. It’s pleasant to look at. It feels good in your hand. It cools well. I’m a big fan of glass.

Miller: Why haven’t the huge companies, the mega breweries like Anheuser-Busch, InBev – I think it’s what it’s called now, they change their names regularly – or the huge wineries done this? I mean, you’ve already said you’ve made the case that economically it makes sense, that environmentally, it makes sense, and that marketing-wise, there’s a solution of sorts, you can still get your message out. So why haven’t the huge companies that care more about their bottom line than anything done this?

Swihart: I think it’s coming. I was talking with Adam about this earlier. There’s a push from Coca Cola, there’s a push from Anheuser-Busch. They know that reuse targets are gonna come through at the state level. It’s someplace down the road and there’s little pilot projects that are happening to try to experiment. Some cities are trying it locally. And I think we’re on the cusp of seeing some of those things play out. So that’s my take on it.

Rack: Yeah, I mean, in the wine space, we’re traditional. We have some of those fun players that are doing brand new things. But for the longest time, we have really stayed with the bottle design. Like sometimes the marketing teams, rightfully so, feel like this is our package. People can identify this. But it’s only been the last five, 10 years that we’ve started to see a transition towards the lightweight glass, which is kind of a step before you get the real initiative – reuse. But with that transition, people are finally starting to see like, well, we can’t choose our own bottle because there’s only a handful of lightweight bottles on the market. And the lighter the bottle you get, the harder it is to change the actual shape, or you’re limited.

So you have a lot of standardization already now in the wine space and we are talking to a lot of those big companies here in Oregon. Willamette Valley Vineyards has been on board. They’re very excited. And we’ve been talking to many national brands as well, including some pilots that we’ll be working with down in Napa, shipping them up here to sort of process and then hopefully bring this down to California as well in a very short period of time.

Miller: Matt, it seems like one of the things you mentioned that I just want to learn more about before I say goodbye is that some of these big companies are doing this because they see the possibility of mandates coming down. I mean, what might happen at state levels across the country?

Swihart: What I’m seeing and talking with people that work in that legislative environment is many states are putting responsibility laws on the place – whether in a bottle bill or through manufacturing components – where a producer would have targets of, say, 5% reuse of their packaging in ‘26. And then that would go up as years go on, much like the electric car market, slow mandates that get rolled in to bake environmental change and impact. California, Maine, Delaware, Tennessee, Washington – they’re all discussing these kinds of things at the committee level to try to get them out on the floor.

So companies see that coming and I think they’re semi-planning for it, but it’s a three pronged approach [where] the producer has to be involved. The consumer has to be educated that it’s a great thing. And then I think you need legislative efforts with hard targets that make it work.

Miller: Matt Swihart and Adam Rack, thanks very much.

Rack: Wonderful. Thank you for having us.

Swihart: Thank you.

Miller: Matt Swihart is the founder and brewmaster at Double Mountain Brewery. Adam Rack is co-founder and sustainability steward at Revino. Enjoy your reusable Think Out Loud mugs that we just gave you. Those can be washed and refilled as many times as you want.

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