Author Renée Watson won two awards from the American Library Association in 2018 for her young adult novel “Piecing Me Together,” which was based on her experiences growing up in Portland. We revisit a conversation we recorded with Watson in 2018 to talk about “Piecing Me Together” and another book she wrote, “Betty Before X.”
Note: The following transcript was created by a computer and edited by a volunteer.
Dave Miller: From the Gert Boyle Studio at OPB, this is Think Out Loud. I’m Dave Miller. Renée Watson is a writer, educator and activist who grew up in Portland and has made a name for herself in New York City. Watson writes for young readers and she does not pull punches. She writes about children who’ve lost their parents, or their neighborhoods. About identity, race and class, about friendship, art and hope. We talked in 2018 after her novel “Piecing Me Together” came out. It won the Newbery Honor and the Coretta Scott King Award.
I started by having her describe the novel’s two main characters, Jade and Maxine.
Renée Watson: So Jade is growing up in North Portland and she’s coming from an economically poor community, but a place that’s rich in so many other things; talent, brilliance, love, right? So she is bussed to another part of town. She goes to a private school that’s mostly white and very affluent.
Miller: In the West Hills, we assume. In the west side, I assume.
Watson: On the west side. And Maxine, her mentor, went to that school also. And the school, they don’t say this, but pretty much [they are] like, “Well, Maxine was a Black woman, you’re a Black child, you two will get along great,” and they pair them together. But because of the vast difference of class, there’s a lot that they both have to figure out in the beginning. Maxine is kind of judgmental and has a lot of stereotypes about Jade and where she comes from, and Jade has the same kind of stereotypes about her too. So they have to work out that relationship of what it means to be the same race, but be very different from one another.
Miller: Why did you want to explore that particular relationship, that intersection?
Watson: So I think we talk a lot about race, but we don’t talk a lot about class and I needed the mentor to be a Woman of Color so that I could really focus on class.
Miller: Instead of having her be a white savior kind of person.
Watson: Exactly, yeah. And there’s diversity within Blackness. And so I wanted to also show this very affluent family that is kind of removed from some of the issues that Jade is having to deal with on a daily basis. And I’ve been a mentor too. So there’s that part of it, of just wanting to grapple with class in a book. But also thinking about adults in your life being flawed, and having very good intentions and really a heart in the right place. But the impact of those intentions kind of hurting and failing. And so I wanted to write about a young girl who’s watching the adults in her life who really do care about her, but they’re messed up. They don’t know the right way to go about it all the time.
Miller: Jade says at one point that, “Maxine always reminds me that I’m a girl who needs saving. She knows I want out and she’s come with a lifeboat.” Did you have people who made you feel that way when you were growing up? That they saw you as a project, or someone who needed help?
Watson: I did have that feeling. But it’s interesting, I really had the feeling once I started being a mentor. I worked in spaces that were in the community that I grew up in. And some of my colleagues sometimes would talk about the neighborhood - Northeast Portland, Jefferson High School - in ways that were very derogatory. And I was like, oh, I grew up here, this is my home. You’re talking about those kids and those kids are like my family and they go to my church and they are my neighbors. And I realized that oh, there’s a perception about what it means to grow up in this neighborhood that was still very present. And so it was surprising…
Miller: Would you tell them that or was that just an internal monologue?
Watson: No, no, no. I had those conversations with many people, and in love. I think sometimes it’s easy to get offended and to just be angry, and I think anger has its place. But I also, I understand again why those stereotypes and assumptions are there, so some of them really only knew about Northeast Portland through news or media, [and] had never really been in the neighborhood. So they’re surprised at the amazing young people they were meeting. It made sense to me that they would think that, so I just took it upon myself to try to help them see like, yeah, of course, they’re brilliant. Of course, there’s a lot of talent here. Of course, parents love their children over here, and have those conversations. Sometimes they were painful and hurtful, but most of the time, we both would grow out of that conversation.
Miller: Did you ever feel though, have some kind of realization that you were in the Maxine role, whether later as a mentor or a teacher - not necessarily even in Portland, in New York City or in New Orleans or other places you may have worked - where you realize, oh, I’m actually approaching this as a kind of savior?
Watson: Yes, absolutely. I taught in the Bronx through an organization called DreamYard and also Community-Word Project and they place writers in the schools to do writing residencies, over the span of a school year, from October through June. And when we first get our placements, a lot of times the classroom teacher just meets you with this folder and is like, ok, these are the kids who are…don’t even worry about them. They’re not gonna pay attention. They just sit in the back, they have their heads down all the time. These are the ones… and so you went through this whole list of just what to expect about their students.
Miller: And so at the very beginning you were told, you can’t teach them, they’re in the back, ignore them and focus on these other ones?
Watson: Sometimes. And I would also be told who’s great and who they thought was going to really thrive in the class.
Miller: And that’s an administrator who’s giving you this message?
Watson: Sometimes, an administrator, yeah. And I had to really fight those first impressions of kind of putting that to the side and thinking about how can I get to know students for real, who they are? What do they want to tell me about where they come from and not this file that’s following them, not what the media says about them. We’re talking about the Bronx, and that has a reputation and so I had to fight against a lot of the stereotypes about that place and knowing that I was an outsider coming in and I didn’t grow up in the Bronx and I’m coming to bring poetry. And I didn’t ever want to say I’m coming to give you a voice, but I want you [to] have a voice and I want you to use your voice. And the poetry is one way that you can use your voice. What do you want to say? What do you want to talk about? And that was my approach.
But yeah, it definitely took me reflecting on, how did it feel for people to come into my neighborhood when I was a young girl and I really didn’t want that to happen. For me, being that person to another young person.
Miller: One of the tough things about this, the whole constellation of stuff you’re talking about, is that I imagine for the most part even the people who come in as teachers or mentors or whoever and who put out some kind of, “I’m here to help you,” I assume it comes for the most part, from a good place.
Watson: Absolutely.
Miller: I mean, it may end up feeling hurtful or hurting feelings or making people feel like they have a lower self worth, but I assume that’s not the intention.
Watson: Right, I agree. I think sometimes, though, our intentions don’t matter as much as the impact of those intentions. And so I think it’s important. I’ve been saying this a lot lately to just to come with an open heart and to listen and to ask questions, and not come into a space thinking that you have answers to give, but that you’re just there to facilitate and to support and not rescue or help. I think even just shifting the language around, mentorship, is one way to just kind of fix that; that mindset of, I’m coming to give you something. But no, I’m coming to be a part of your life and I want to know about you and who you really are, beyond what I think you are or what the statistics say you are.
I think if we come at it with that approach, that’s one way of starting to kind of break down the power dynamic of adults coming into a young person’s life, young [people] need adults. In the book, Jade helps Maxine. There’s some things that Jade is very confident in and knows in her heart of hearts and is able to help Maxine. So I also think if we can get to a place where there’s a mutual, like we’re collaborating on this and I help you, you help me, I listen to you, you listen to me. I think that’s the best case scenario.
Miller: I mentioned that there are two big relationships in the book; we’ve just been talking about one. The other is the beginning of a friendship which is always such a wonderful thing to read about or see. And sort of rare, I think in fiction, just watching a non-romantic friendship take hold. But it’s between Jade and a poor white classmate named Samantha. Can you describe what pushes them together as friends and what pulls them apart? And you needn’t give away all the details of the story.
Watson: So Jade is longing for that friend where she can look across the room and they get each other and have that moment of like, did you see that or did you hear that? And she finds that in Sam, for the first time, they really bond because they are in the same economics class. And so there’s just some things that they get that some of the wealthier students don’t understand about their lives. So they really bond over that.
But because Sam is white and Jade is Black, there are places where they go and they navigate the space differently. So going to the mall, how teachers treat them. Jade can feel that tension of like, yeah, we’re good friends and I know you love me and care about me, but the world sees us differently and Sam just isn’t exposed to that. She has a hard time understanding that sometimes it really is about race. So they have some very difficult conversations around what it means for Jade to be in her body as a Black girl growing up in the Pacific Northwest and what it means for Sam to be her friend for real and not just kind of dismissing those things and like, “No, that wasn’t racist, that was just because…” She’ll have a reason, and Jade is like, “No, it’s because I’m Black, and it’s OK to say that,” and they kind of work through that in the book.
Miller: It’s almost like you set out to write a book that would ace the so-called Bechdel Test, where you have these female characters talking to each other about money, about careers, about identity, about family and friendship, and not for the most part about boys, not about men. Why did you make that decision, that they’re talking about so many things that make up somebody’s life, but for the most part, it’s not about romantic relationships?
Watson: It’s interesting, I think that Jade wanted that, right? And I try not to talk about my characters like they’re real people. But the truth is, in the very early drafts of this book, I had a romantic interest for her and those scenes were horrible. It just was not working. And I feel like the character was like, no, this is not that story, like this is not right. And so as a writer, I kind of have to get out of the way of my own outline and what I am intending for this book to be and let the story develop on its own. So a lot of times through revision, once I realized, hey, this thread isn’t working, this plot point isn’t working, I’ll take things out. And as soon as I took out the love interest, the book bloomed and blossomed in a way that I didn’t plan for originally.
So then I went back and was like, oh, right, like she doesn’t have to date anyone. Like, why can’t this really be a book about friendship and about women loving women and nurturing each other? I had that in my real life. I know a lot of young people who are so focused on their future and they’re just not thinking about dating right now. And I want my books to reflect reality, right? And not just kind of rely on the things that well, we think teenagers are thinking this or talking about this, so let me put this in the book.
It was important to me to kind of step back and think about the girls I’ve mentored and how so many of them weren’t dating, were super smart and talented and into art. And I was like, oh yeah, I want to write about them in a real authentic way and just let the story be what it is without me trying to push it into a certain way.
Miller: I’m glad you mentioned the art because it figures prominently in who Jade is. Can you describe the art that she makes and what it means to her?
Watson: So Jade makes collages and she makes them out of everyday things that people throw away. And it’s kind of this extended metaphor throughout the book about feeling discarded and things that people don’t find beauty in and her ability to take those things and make beauty out of them. So sometimes she’s doing it because she’s bored or because she’s frustrated, she’s hurt by an incident that happened at school and she’ll come home and she processes that through her art making. And that just came out of, I really do believe that art is therapeutic and there’s something about a collage where you’re taking all these pieces that don’t necessarily belong together and literally making something out of what could be considered junk and just wanting to have that kind of picture for young people to think about, [that] yes, isolated events in your life can be horrible, hurtful, painful. There’s some joy in there too. How can you piece all those parts of your life together to make a whole thing, a whole person? So that’s kind of what she’s going through in the book, is the metaphor of making art, in order to make herself whole.
Miller: Among other things, you can read the book, the year in her life that you take us through, as Jade is getting the confidence to speak up for herself. And early on, she speaks up for herself in her mind. By the end, she does it out loud really effectively. How did you get that confidence?
Watson: For me, personally?
Miller: Yeah.
Watson: I think I started finding my voice and really using it in high school. I went to Jefferson High School and I had two English teachers who really just impacted my life, Miss Houghton, Pam Houghton, and Linda Christensen. And they just opened up this world of poetry to me that up until that point, poetry was very simple or it rhymed or was about flowers and trees and things like that. And they brought in poets who were speaking out against injustice and really writing really powerful poems about changing the world through using your words. And so I started to write in those classes and really kind of found my voice and started speaking out more.
I was very, very shy as a child. Elementary and middle school, very quiet. I hated to get up in front of a group and read anything. And in high school I really started to be more vocal, and speak out. So poetry really was the vehicle that kind of gave me an outlet to express myself. Even though I always wrote in my journal, I never wanted to say anything out loud. So it was high school where I began to see myself as someone who had something to say and then who wanted to actually say it.
I think over the years, it’s hard for me to keep silent, working with young people, right? I can’t ask them to share their stories and be vulnerable on the page if I’m not willing to do that as their teacher or their mentor. So really, my students have kind of pushed me to be brave and to share my stories and to do the things that I’m doing because I feel like I have to kind of be an example for them. And if I’m gonna ask them to do it and take a risk, then I have to take the same risk.
Miller: What else have you gotten from being a mentor? Normally, we think about being a teacher or a mentor as growth or help going in, and going from the adult to the kid or the student. What have you gotten from being a teacher or a mentor?
Watson: I think it’s just reminded me of how vulnerable and fragile life is, right? So you have this young mind that is being bombarded with all kinds of messages and sometimes as an adult, we can be very judgmental of teenagers and just like, why do they think that way? Why won’t they get their act together and why don’t they try harder? And working with them hands on and really being entrenched in their lives, I’m like, there’s so much that they’re going through and having to think about and having to navigate. It’s kind of caused me to pause and slow down, be more empathetic and really remember what it was like to be their age and again, try not to come in with like…I don’t have any answers, right? I have my experience and I can share my experience, I can introduce them to other people who are successful and doing things in a way that hopefully inspires them.
So yeah, I think I’ve just learned how not to be so critical and judgmental of whatever feels like is “other,” and step back and kind of think of a whole person’s story and what got them to be where they are right now. Sometimes a person shows up and they’re a certain way and you could fall in love with that or not. And if you don’t fall in love with that, it’s very easy to kind of write them off, right? And in a way Jade does that, she gets frustrated with Maxine and she’s just like, “I’m quitting this program, I don’t want to do it anymore.” But what does it mean to say, this relationship is valuable and even though this person is not perfect, I’m going to work on this and practice this muscle of empathy and forgiveness and really work at a relationship.
So, yeah, I think my students have taught me patience and grace.
Miller: Why write for young readers?
Watson: I write in multiple genres. I think when a story comes to me and I’m like, OK, this is for a teenager, it’s usually the kinds of stories that are so complex and where there is no kind of right or wrong. I think when you’re in your adolescence, you are so passionate about whatever it is that you believe in or whatever you’re angry about or whoever you love, it’s like the most intense feeling, and that just makes for really good storytelling. To be able to have these characters be so [passionate] about whatever it is that they’re dealing with, helps to just have a great emotion in the story. So teenage life, if you think about who you were at 13 and 16, that just makes for good plot points and good story. But I also think this is an impressionable time, right? And so especially when I’m thinking about writing books about race, class and gender, I want young people to be able to have conversations about these things and not wait till college to have them.
Growing up in Portland, I remember skinhead violence, I remember having fear - real palpable fear about walking home from school, from the bus, to go home. But no one was really talking about this out loud. Like it was something you could feel, you may hear a little whispers here and there with adults, but I don’t remember someone actually sitting me down and saying, “how do you feel about what’s happening in your neighborhood?” And so I really hope that my books provide that space for young people to talk about what’s happening in their world. And if they feel like they don’t want to share their own personal stories, then they can talk about the characters and have this whole cast of people to kind of work out their own stuff through.
Miller: What kind of feedback from your young readers makes you most proud [and] do you most love to hear?
Watson: I think there’s two types of feedback. I love when someone writes and they tell me, “I saw myself in your book. Like, do you know me? How did you know to write this scene in that way?” That’s always such a deep compliment because in telling something that seems so very much about the life I lived or the city that I grew up in. You’re able to reach people who didn’t grow up in Portland and who this isn’t their verbatim story, but yet they can still kind of see their reflection in the pages. So that always means so much to me. And especially when Black girls are like, “Your cover, like that girl looks like my aunt or my niece or me.”
Miller: Like they can see themselves represented in something that’s…
Watson: “I love literally that Jade’s hair, Jade’s skin tone”…that always means a lot.
And then I love getting letters from boys. I get a lot of emails from male students who love the books and are writing to me about those scenes in the books where Jade is interacting with guys, like the Dairy Queen scene, and there’s other moments in the book.
Miller: Just to tell folks, that’s a scene where these young men, boys, are rating, on a numerical system, one to 10, the various girls they see in graphic and rude ways, including your main character.
Watson: Right. And I love that young men are having conversations about that. Who does teach them to do cat calling and why do they do it? And having those conversations has been eye opening for me. I think sometimes books get categorized, right? You look at a cover like “Piecing Me Together” and you’re like, this is a book for girls. You might even say this is a book for Black girls, right? And I think that boys should be reading “Piecing Me Together.” And it’s nice when a librarian or a teacher puts that book in front of them and says, “No, I, I get it. I know this is not a book about boys, but you should be reading this too.” And that’s always really nice, when I get feedback from them that they love the book and that they got so much out of it.
Miller: This book is so much a Portland book. You’re not technically a Portlander anymore, although I imagine you’re a Portlander forever in your own way. You’re a Portlander forever. But you also don’t live here right now. What was it like to live here in your imagination, to write a book about Portland?
Watson: So I come back often. My family is here and I spend big chunks of time in Portland, like months at a time, still. So I wrote half the book in New York and half of it here. And I remember one day my sister taking me to North Portland and I literally walked the streets just so that I could [be] like, all right, yeah, the Lewis and Clark markers that are there, that mark the expedition. I definitely needed to be back in this space in a real way to write about it. And I love Portland and I always say I have a like, bittersweet relationship with this place. And so in a way, this book, this side of home, they’re kind of love letters to Portland and a call to action. Like, can we really talk about what happened here and not just pretend that everything is OK, but really can we talk about what it really means to be from Portland, what it really means to be a Black girl growing up in the Pacific Northwest?
So, yeah, I don’t live here anymore, but I come a lot and for the research. I just had, when I was in New York, photos on my wall, quotes. I’m very tactile in that way and I like to see what I’m writing about. I did some kind of photo walk tours when I was here and printed those photos out and have them in my writing room. So I could stay inspired about this beautiful city.
Miller: That’s Portland. What was it like to immerse yourself in the Detroit of the 1940s for your new book?
Watson: So very much the same thing, which I didn’t know much about Detroit at all. And definitely not the 40s. I had to do a lot of research and it was so fun. I found magazines and ads and had those hanging up, pictures of Betty at different stages in her life. I did a lot of interviewing and got storytelling from people who grew up during that time. So I could really focus on Betty Shabazz, but also the backdrop, like what’s happening in the city. I think it’s important, environments impact you, right? And so I wanted to make sure that Detroit was represented in a very real, palpable way. So I did a lot of calling people who I knew who lived in Detroit during that time and interviewing them and then researching. What was the music that was out back then, and I would listen to that as I wrote.
Miller: I should just mention while you were having that completely cogent answer, a trolley of very multicolored balloons went right by us, behind me, you were facing it and you didn’t even break. It was amazing. I’ve never seen that before. I don’t know what those balloons are for, but that was very impressive to stay on that. Renée Watson, thanks so much for coming in and I really look forward to talking again.
Watson: Thanks so much for having me.
Miller: Renée Watson is a writer and educator who grew up in Portland. She’s the author of a number of novels for young readers, including “Piecing Me Together,” which won the Newbery Honor and the Coretta Scott King Award. Her latest books are “The 1619 Project: Born On The Water” co-written with Nicole Hannah Jones and “Love Is a Revolution.” We talked in 2018.
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