Cracking down on untraceable firearms known as ‘ghost guns’

In March, federal law enforcement officials discovered more than 60 privately made firearms, or ghost guns, being manufactured by a convicted felon in Salem. Ghost guns can be made from either a 3D printer or assembled at home from parts that can be legally purchased online and don’t require a background check. They also lack serial numbers, which makes it difficult to trace them when used to commit a crime. Although the majority of guns used to commit a crime contain a serial number, police in Los Angeles and other large California cities have recorded a dramatic increase in the recovery of ghost guns at crime scenes since 2020. Joining us now is Ellen Rosenblum, Oregon’s state attorney general, who has championed legislation to restrict ghost guns at the state and federal level.

The following transcript was created by a computer and edited by a volunteer.

Dave Miller: This is Think Out Loud on OPB, I’m Dave Miller. Federal authorities recently uncovered a massive ghost gun manufacturing operation in Salem. These guns can be made from either a 3-D printer or assembled at home from parts that can easily and legally be bought online. Unlike guns purchased at a store, these don’t require a background check. That’s handy if you’re a felon and are not allowed to possess a firearm, like the Salem man who was found with more than 60 of these ghost guns, in addition to about 200 counterfeit Oxycodone pills containing Fentanyl. Oregon Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum wants to restrict access to these guns. She has tried to get the legislature to act for three years now, so far unsuccessfully. She wrote an Op-Ed about this issue in today’s Oregonian. Ellen Rosenblum, welcome back.

Ellen Rosenblum: Thanks, Dave, good to be here.

Miller: You wrote in this Op-ed that ghost guns represent a growing danger to all Oregonians. Can you put a number on that? Do you have a sense how many there are in Oregon now, the extent to which they are increasing?

Rosenblum: Yeah. Unfortunately we don’t have that number because law enforcement doesn’t keep track here in Oregon of ghost guns that are seized, and of course, ghost guns when they’re seized, they don’t have serial numbers. That’s a big part of the problem. And so we’re not able to trace them to really figure out even where they came from. We can’t solve crimes in which these are used as crime guns, which is unfortunately becoming more common. But we do know that in California for example, a couple of years ago, very recently, 30% of all guns seized were ghost guns, and in LA, I think it was closer to over 40%. So look, they’re our neighbors, and in fact, they have adopted this legislation as has Washington. So we’re the only West Coast state so far to not have adopted ghost gun legislation. I tried three years ago. I hoped Oregon would get out in front on this issue. We’re not out in front, but it’s not too late, I hope. And so we’re just keeping pushing at it. It’ll be our fourth try. Third time was not a charm, but hopefully the fourth time will be, because this is a really serious problem.

Miller: Can you explain to your best ability why this loophole exists, why it is that if you buy a fully formed gun, it has to have a serial number. But if you buy something that can, very easily, it seems, be turned into the same exact thing. It doesn’t have to have a serial number?

Rosenblum: I can’t really speak for the federal government, and this comes out of essentially federal law, and there’s a distinction that’s made between fully finished frames and receivers that are sold, where background checks are required and where there are serial numbers on those parts and something called the 80% receivers. When they’re 80% receivers, these require a buyer to use machine tools to complete the manufacturing process on their own. And because these receivers are less than 80% complete under federal law, they don’t require a background check or serial numbers that completed receivers have to have. It took me a long time to understand that, because I’m not a gun expert. So I hope you don’t dig down too far here, Dave, but the fact of the matter is that this is also true by the way, as to 3-D printed receivers or frames – there’s no background check, there’s no serial number requirement. So the new proposed federal rule would make some progress in this regard. It would actually finally require that even these unfinished receivers and frames would require serial numbers and would require background checks – right now, they don’t, and so they don’t in Oregon, right? But we’re hoping to change that. And so that’s what this proposed law is about, in part. We want to make it simple. We want to make it so that undetectable firearms, firearms that can’t be detected, for example, by a metal detector or other security devices, but…

Miller: …instead, it’s some kind of plastic polymer or something.

Rosenblum: That’s right. So we would prohibit undetectable firearms. And we would make that a class B felony, were you to violate that part of the law and it would also ban untraceable and unserialized firearms. So even though the federal rule, which by the way, has not yet gone into effect, would address some of this, that would not address 3D printed guns at all. And we don’t have the confidence that this rule is necessarily even going to be finalized anytime soon. We hope it will be, it’s supposed to be.

Miller: The bills that you supported, either put forward or supported in 2019, and 2021, they haven’t really gone anywhere, despite the fact that Democrats, who are generally in favor of various versions of gun control, are in charge of both chambers. How do you explain that?

Rosenblum: Right? Well, as you know, any gun legislation is controversial in any state in the country including Oregon. We’ve done pretty well the last few sessions and frankly, there have to be priorities. The legislature is, I think, strategic about that. Certainly the Democrats are. There’s also concern we want to make sure that other bills get passed and that there aren’t the kind of problems that we’ve seen even with the majority Democratic legislature. We’ve seen, for example, in the area of climate, what can happen. I want to give credit where credit’s due. We’ve had some really strong supporters for this bill, and we still do. But in the last few sessions, the priorities for gun legislation have been, for example, in 2021, the gun storage bill, which I’m delighted finally passed, although it was watered down a bit, and the keeping guns out of the capitol and out of on school grounds. So look, that stuff is really important too. But ghost guns are no longer just an add on or the frosting on the cake. They are where things are now, unfortunately, making such a difference that some of our progress with background checks, our progress is being diluted and perhaps perhaps even eliminated. If 40% of the guns that are being seized in California you can’t even do a background check on them and you can’t trace where they came from, then you got a problem, no matter how strong, how many other loopholes you’ve filled.

Miller: Didn’t you note though that California has a kind of law on its books that you want to put forward?

Rosenblum: So there’s about nine states right now that have passed ghost gun legislation. I am not able to give you the details of each state’s laws. Washington, we often follow, I wish they’d follow us more. But we think that Washington’s laws and California’s laws are strong, but there are some tweaks that we’re making in light of some of the things that we’ve seen and in light of the federal law, because, of course, federal law preempts state law. What I mean by that is that if there’s a federal law that passes in the area of gun safety, then the chances are that that law is going to be the one that we all have to follow. So we’re looking at that very closely. And if these federal rules pass, we’re gonna have to take yet another look before the next session to make sure that we’re in compliance. But yeah, we’re happy with California and Washington, but we’re going to do it the Oregon way and make sure that it works well for Oregonians.

Miller: What challenges perhaps on the basis of the Second Amendment, do you envision having to deal with if you were to get this law passed, to ban untraceable, unserialized or non metal guns either being possessed or manufactured in Oregon?

Rosenblum: I don’t see it as a problem. We will defend against any Second Amendment challenges. Look, this is a gun, this is about gun safety, this is about protecting Oregonians. This isn’t really any different from the gun storage laws. I don’t think anybody at this point, I don’t think there’s been challenges to that law based on the Second Amendment. There is a case in the U. S. Supreme Court right now, pending, involving the Second Amendment. Obviously, once that case is ruled on, it has nothing to do with ghost guns. But once it’s decided, there may be some additional considerations that we’ll have to take a look at. But at this point I’m not concerned about that.

Miller: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives, they say that the majority of firearms used to commit crimes, nationally, are not ghost guns; instead, they’re guns that were acquired legally and then later stolen. Why not focus on those guns instead?

Rosenblum: Hey look, this is an ‘all hands on deck’ moment. I’m not going to argue that there are guns that are being used that have come into the wrong hands for all the wrong reasons and that those certainly include stolen guns. Those certainly include all kinds of guns in addition to ghost guns. But when you have a major state in the country like California, saying that nearly half of the guns seized in gun crimes are ghost guns. And right here in Oregon, we’ve discovered a huge manufacturing operation of ghost guns. And by the way you mentioned there were 63, there may not have been 63 completed ghost guns, but there were all kinds of parts that were intended to be put together to be turned into ghost guns and then sold sold by individuals who are vulnerable who were trading on, you know, Oxycontin pills laced with Fentanyl and with this gentleman who is now subject to indictment by the federal government. Look, we have a problem right here in Oregon. We have a problem with drugs, particularly Fentanyl, and we have a problem with ghost guns. So we need to address it. And there’s no point in evaluating which area should be prioritized at this point. Ghost guns are here and we have to deal with them, now. As I said, this will be our fourth try. We have great support from Senator Manning, from Representative Reynolds, from Representative Alonso Leon, who also co-sponsored our bill. We are going to get across the finish line, this next time. This was a short session in 2022, and so there were a lot of bills that went by the wayside, this wasn’t the only one.

Miller: You mentioned that there is a federal rule in the works. You said you’re not sure until it’s actually on the books, you’re not holding your breath. But what else would you like to see in terms of federal action with respect to ghost gun laws?

Rosenblum: Well, I think President Biden has been very strong on ghost guns. He even raised the issue in his State of the Union Address. And I think that if we can get these rules passed and we can get ATF onboard; we really need a new director of ATF. We have an interim director. Unfortunately, a really strong candidate did not make it, probably because of his views on this very issue or related. David Chipman – would love to see him as the next Director. But ATF has not been a strong agency and it is critical. So now ATFE, which includes explosives and we know that in this country we have huge, huge problems, not only with with guns but with explosives, with terrorism. These issues are all related. And so I love to see more partnership with the federal government. We need a new US Attorney. I love the current US Attorney, here in Oregon, but he is temporary. We need to have partnerships with the federal government with the FBI, with the ATF, and work together. There’s a recent article about how, in New York there’s a partnership between the New York Police and the ATF, that’s working extremely well and there’s all kinds of investigations now, successful investigations as a result of these partnerships. That’s more important to me than legislation. It’s important that we work together and I’m ready to do that right here in Oregon, with our part with our federal partners.

Miller: Finally, this morning, we learned that you joined five other Attorneys General in signing a letter written by the New York State Attorney General Letitia James. It’s about allegations of sexual harassment brought by more than 30 former employees of the NFL. The allegations were first published by the New York Times. All the other states are home to NFL teams, but not Oregon. Why sign this letter?

Rosenblum: Oregon is a state that really values the importance of being protective of people who are harmed by those who would take advantage of them – vulnerable women, men, it doesn’t matter, trans, and so when Oregon is asked to join a letter, which is what this was in support of other states that have these issues, we will join them in part because I work closely with my colleagues throughout the country and we help each other out when we can. But also because Oregon is not immune to problems of this nature. Even if we don’t have an NFL team, we have professional soccer teams, we have a professional basketball team. We have all kinds of problems that…just did within the past year with regard to sexual harassment when it comes to our own local sports teams. And it’s not just about sports. It’s all over; this is an issue of sexual harassment that is very near and dear to my heart and the work that I do. There’s an organization called the Attorney General Sexual Assault Task Force that I’m proud to be associated with. And I worked closely with all of the advocacy groups in Oregon that look out for our most vulnerable, including those who are victims of sexual harassment and sexual assault. So when something like this pops up, you’re gonna see me there, you’re going to see my name there.

Miller: Ellen Rosenblum, thanks very much.

Rosenblum: Thanks, Dave. Thanks for having me.

Miller: That’s Oregon Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum.

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